Community.MixedInKey.com -- How To: Understanding key and tempo in harmonic mixing

Yakov (Mixed In Key)
10-18-2008

Overview

Harmonic mixing is based on the idea of mixing harmonically-compatible songs. The standard approach is to detect root notes at the song’s original tempo and find other compatible songs that will fit.

However, it is important to understand that changing the tempo of the song will change the key as well. Even the smallest tempo change will alter the key, but a 6% difference will change the key to a whole new one.

6% Rule

6% is thus the magic number: it will move your song to the adjacent key on the piano, as illustrated below:

If your original song was recorded in F Minor, increasing the tempo by 6% will move the song one key to the right to give you G-Flat Minor.

This is equivalent to adding 7 to your current Camelot number. Since F Minor has an equivalent keycode of 4A, adding 7 will give you the result of 11A. The piano roll above shows you that 11A is indeed equivalent to Gbm.

Decreasing the tempo by 6% has the reverse effect: It moves your song one key to the left, or the equivalent to subtracting 7 from your current Camelot number. This is illustrated below:

3% Rule

There is a basic rule for smaller increments: If you change the tempo by less than 3%, keep your original key. If you change the tempo by 3% or more, use the 6% key.

It works in this way because 3% is the middle point. Anything below 3% will be closer to your original key (F Minor) and anything above 3% will be closer to your 6% key (Gb minor or E minor, depending whether you increase or decrease the tempo).

Examples

Two songs in F Minor that have roughly the same BPMs: 130 and 131. We can harmonically mix them together because the tempo difference is less than 3%.

Next up are two songs in A Minor with different tempos. First song is 128 BPM and the second is 136 BPM. To beatmatch the slower song with the faster song, we’ll have to increase its tempo by exactly 6.25%. This will move the slower song one key to the right, making it B-flat Minor rather than A Minor. The new keys will no longer result in a harmonic mix because A Minor (8A) and B-Flat Minor (3A) are not compatible Camelot numbers.

Using “Master Tempo”

If your DJ equipment or software supports “Master Tempo,” use it! Master Tempo is a pitch-correction technique that makes it easy to use harmonic mixing at any tempo. If you increase the tempo of an A Minor song by 6.25%, your “Master Tempo” button will keep the song in A Minor.

Conclusion

In summary, if your tempo change is less than 3%, use the original key. If your tempo is greater than 3%, use the 6% key. The new +6% key can be figured out by adding 7 to your current Camelot code. The new -6% key can be figured out by subtracting 7 from your current Camelot code.

Understanding the relation between changing tempos and changing keys can help move your harmonic mixing to the next level.

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DSP420
02-07-2007

hello, and talking about tempo, if i dont have a mixer here with me??? how many bpm, changes a key???

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djmexx
02-07-2007

Look in my Topic, you will find information about changing the BPM and how the key change ;-)

The relation between Pitch and Key

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DJmod
02-16-2007

At 75 BPM
6% = to 4.5 BPM

At 100 BPM
6% = to 6 BPM

AT 125 BPM
6% = to 7.5 BPM

At 150 BPM
6% = to 9 BPM

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
03-09-2007

Bump, it's been a while since this topic has been on the front page.

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GeoffreyChaucer
03-09-2007

I disagree with the 3% rule. Although it may sound like the track is "closer key-wise" to the key depending on whether it is 2.5 or 3.5, it just won't sound right if you try to mix a track that is +2.9 "C minor" with a +0 "C minor". In order for it to sound less sour you ought to try to mix in increments of less than 2%. otherwise you need to try the key lock.

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
03-09-2007

Geoffrey, I agree with you. 2% or less sounds much better than 3%

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
05-07-2007

Bumping this topic because this question comes up often.

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dmuchmore
05-20-2007

Hi all,
I'm just newbie here.
just 1 question.
I'm using CDJ of Pioneer. There is a master tempo botton. If I press that botton, I will change BPM without key change.
3% rule or 6% rule will be ignored.
Is it right?

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
05-21-2007

Correct, "master tempo" changes the BPM without changing your key. "3% rule" and "6% rule" no longer apply because you're always playing at 0%.

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DJ gNetik
05-21-2007

been along time since i last posted here and im sure i asked this question once before but here we go.....

when recording your tunes to MIKdo you set the pitch to 0% or do you record all at the same BPM? any reasons not to ? pros cons ?

cheers

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
05-21-2007

It's best to set the pitch to 0%. This will give you flexibility later on, and you won't be forced to re-record your records if you change the overall tempo of your sets. It will make your DJing more versatile.

For example, if you record your entire music collection at 140 BPM, you may have to re-record it at 133 BPM two years later. It's always better to keep the original tempo intact.

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stonerbway
05-24-2007

what about setting it to master tempo on the cdj?

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
05-24-2007

Master Tempo keeps your key "glued" to 0% even as you change the tempo. The 3% rule no longer applies -- you can beatmatch songs making them sound detuned.

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loveslap
06-09-2007

but "master tempo" sounds audibly bad on every cjd i've ever heard. takes definition out of the sound

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
06-09-2007

Master Tempo sounds good on Pioneer CDJ-1000s if you use it for less than 3% adjustments. I don't suggest using Master Tempo if you're changing the tempo by +/- 3% because there may be a quality loss.

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Shim
06-10-2007

Does this make a difference when using Ableton?

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D´Allegro
09-14-2007

is master tempo the same as "key lock" ?tnkx

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
09-14-2007

Does this make a difference when using Ableton?

If you're using Beat Mode, it doesn't make a difference. If you are using Re-pitch, it does.

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
09-14-2007

is master tempo the same as "key lock"?

Yes, same thing. I am not sure why it was called "Master Tempo" since key lock is a better name for it :)

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Camelot Sound
09-16-2007

Every key lock process, both software and hardware, produces measurable distortion. Whether or not it is audible depends on the quality of the processing, the amount of processing, and the type of music.

With most processors, changes of less than 3% should be acceptable. With key lock, pitch adjustment up should sound better than pitch adjustment down by the same amount. For example, shifting a 133 BPM track to 136 should sound better than shifting the same track to 130 BPM.

It is my understanding, from a layman's perspective, that this difference is due to adding or removing actual samples from the signal. When speeding a track up, a few of the 44,000 samples/second are cut, thus shortening the duration. When slowing a track down, a few samples are synthsized and added back into the track, thus lengthening the duration. Adding synthesized samples sounds worse than cutting actual samples, thus producing the echo commonly heard when slowing a key-locked track down.

As a general rule, I have found that percussion has complex waveforms that do not take kindly to key lock processing. Voices are much easier to process without audible side effects, enabling various speed versions of the same a cappella vocal.

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noislogie
09-18-2007

hi yakov, can u explain me a little bit more about the key mode when using ableton, how can i set the preferences to work without suffering the 3% or 6%?

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
09-19-2007

Hi,

I believe that if you use "Beats" or "Complex" mode, Ableton Live takes care of this for you. You can configure this setting individually for every clip you play, so it's easy to set up.

If you use "Repitch", the 3% and 6% rule applies.

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stewbee
09-25-2007

This is close to the principle behind the operation. What a 'Key Lock' or 'Master tempo is actually doing is time-compression/expansion, which is similar, but not identical to pitch correction. For the more technically minded, Wikipedia has a fairly good description of the basic process here.

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
10-17-2007

Moving the topic back to page 1 of the forum.

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hewy
10-22-2007

Hey Yakov Im new here and completely! new to harmonic Mixing and keeping music in key as in i have no idea at all about key etc. Ive read a few things on here so far, but some seem to be a bit advance for someone that is completely new to this, are there any topics or anything that explains the utter basics...

Thanks Joel.

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
10-22-2007

Hi Joel,

Welcome to the forum! The best tutorial is here: http://www.MixedInKey.com/HowTo.aspx. It explains how to experience smooth mixing every time you DJ -- it's a good place to start.

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bohdai
11-14-2007

i think i will go to the trouble of recording a bit of all my songs at a master bpm to establish their harmonic relationships when beat matched but still spin the tunes in their original state...this should work right?

if that is a good method, i think it would be amazing if future versions of MIK had the ability to do this (key at a master bpm) within the app! =P

thanks for all the great advice!

edit: again, assuming my idea above is a good one, can a MIK engineer/rep give me an idea of what the app "likes" to see to make a good read of a song? i'm looking to avoid giving the app too small of an edit to make an accurate key and bpm read.

thanks again!

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mmeds1228
11-21-2007

So I understand that if a track's pitch is shifted, it will change the key......once applying the 3% or 6% rule, doesn't that rule then apply to the track being played next as well?

What I mean is.....if your current track has Camelot 3 and the pitch shifted 6%, we'd be looking in Camelot 10 for the next track......but that would only be valid if the tempo of the next track was the same or close to the track playing (after the pitch shift).....is this correct?

If the new track was Camelot 10 but had a tempo much lower or higher than the resulting tempo of the current track (after the pitch shift), the true key of that track would no longer be 10 once the pitch was shifted to match the current track.....so the rule would then push that track out of the running.....that is what I'm thinking anyway....maybe I'm overthinking this......

If that makes sense to anyone and they can shed some light on it, that would help me.

Thanks!

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
11-21-2007

What I mean is.....if your current track has Camelot 3 and the pitch shifted 6%, we'd be looking in Camelot 10 for the next track......but that would only be valid if the tempo of the next track was the same or close to the track playing (after the pitch shift).....is this correct?

You are correct, the tempo of the next track has to be the same or close to the tracking playing now.

For example, track 1 can be 8A (+1% to make it 128 BPM) and track 2 can be 8A (0%, it's already 128 BPM) and they will sound great together.

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little_fox
12-14-2007

Bohdai said:

"i think it would be amazing if future versions of MIK had the ability to do this (key at a master bpm) within the app!"

Great idea bohdai! I was just trying to wrap my brain around how to organize my music so I can mix harmonically with different BPMs but without using the master tempo effect.

I avoid the master tempo effect. Even on my CDJ-1000s it very noticeably degrades the sound quality (especially when pushing a track +/- 2%) and I have been trying to find away around using it. Any suggestions?

I think it would be killer if MIK had a built in BPM analyzer. Then the software could tell you what the relationship of two tracks were going to be when you played them at the same BPM. This would make master tempo unnecessary. What do you say Yakov? Can it happen:)?

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gemineye7
12-15-2007

Hi folks! new to hear, im just about to start key'n my record colection with rapid evoliotion, does anyone think it would help if i got the key detection of my records while at the same bpm?? would this do away with master tempo ect? would this make things easer? some feed back pleeeeeeeeeese!!!!!

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naldo
12-26-2007

So if I don't go higher than 3% or 6% I shouldn't worry about the keys changing, right?
and another question: When you guys talk about 3% or 6% you talking about 3.00% or 6.00% not 0.3% or 0.6%, right?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
12-27-2007

Correct, if you are doing a <3% tempo change, no need to worry about key changes. We are referring to 3%, not .3%.

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naldo
12-27-2007

Thanks Chad.

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zeuxxx
12-28-2007

I can´t understando one question:

Example: I have one Track X at 125 bpms-2A and another Track Y at 132 bpm-2A. OK.
If I want mix both I have to up pitch up to 6% in X, so now Y is 132 bpm and 2A mixed with X 132 bpm and 9A.

My question is: Is it not an energy boost mixing example?

If it yes, I think the only way that pitch correction afect to mix is when first track X is up 6% pitch and Y pitch < 3%, but it works good when X < 3% and Y > 6% because energy boost mixing

Is it right?

Sorry for my english :S

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
12-29-2007

My question is: Is it not an energy boost mixing example?

If you went from track Y to track X it would be. You would have the opposite effect by going from X to Y.

If it yes, I think the only way that pitch correction afect to mix is when first track X is up 6% pitch and Y pitch < 3%, but it works good when X < 3% and Y > 6% because energy boost mixing

Is it right?

Yes, but I think you got it backwards on the last part. X > 3%and Y <3% should give you an energy boost.

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alan h
01-06-2008

hello guys,

jus supposin i have a track playin out (track a) and its 132 and the track im bringin in (track b) is 128. now the 3% rules come into play is that right??? so can i jus bring the track a down to 131 and then it would be ok???

im also tryin to get my head round the 6% percent rule. i understand you hav to add seven on the camelot. so if the track playin out is 2a and im bringin a track in at 9a is that ok???? like ive had to change the track im bringin in because the previous track was more than 3% so ive had to change the track to suit the track thats playin out. so ive added 7 and now i have a track thats 9a. so now i can mix the two together. thanks for takin the time to read this

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The Digitalist
01-06-2008

I don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you.

Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious?

Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm.

Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything.

This would enable proper on the fly harmonic mixing.

It's a no brainer for me....

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psy
01-10-2008

or what you could just do is gradually work your way up through to the faster tunes by jumping only 1 or 2 bpm at a time then it would not be a problem or if you really must make a big jump in bpm do it between 2 songs which start and end on percussion and it wont matter what bpm they are at as long as you match the beats. yeah not mixing harmonically but it gets you from a to b in an emergency and while not being as showy as a full harmonic mix it serves its purpose. a bit plain if you are mixing like that all night but its just to get you to your new groove then you can mix harmonically all night till your hearts content. thats quite a no brainer when u think about it also :)

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Liam.s
01-21-2008

i agree with that, is this something that could be added to a future release?

having the key at a standard BPM is so much more useful than the key at the actual BMP!!

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Liam.s
01-21-2008

"don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you.

Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious?

Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm.

Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything".

i agree with that, is this something that could be added to a future release?

having the key at a standard BPM is so much more useful than the key at the actual BMP!!

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
01-21-2008

Hi Liam,

We've had lots of users request this feature, and I have a great idea on how to implement it. Yakov has just returned from a business trip, so I will soon be discussing it with him to see if we can't get this feature quickly added.

Cheers,
Chad

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Liam.s
01-21-2008

ah thats great news to hear!! look forward to seein it in practice :)

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KrissO
01-28-2008

Thanks a lot for this guide! :)

Simple question, just out of curiosity.

If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B?

To try answering my own question, I guess you can't make that happen unless you pitch your track happy hardcore? Or isn't it possible at all?

Or to put it in another way. Say inbetween the pitch range 1% - 6% of a track that is 130BPM 1A. The key of the track must surely go through other keys than 1A and 9A?

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
01-28-2008

Hi,

If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B?

Unfortunately this is not possible. 2B is a Major key, and 1A is a Minor key. Adjusting the tempo won't change a Minor track into a Major track.

My advice is to use Master Tempo at all times -- it's the most reliable way to avoid key clashes when you mix, and you don't have to worry about tempo changes either.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
01-28-2008

If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B?

This just wouldn't be practical. By my calculations it would take a 42% increase in speed, which would make your track about 190 BPM. Just because the numbers 1A and 2B are close together on the camelot wheel doesn't make them easily transferable. We don't recommend moving diagonally on the Camelot Wheel anyways. You should probably mix into 2A first, then go to 2B.

Say inbetween the pitch range 1% - 6% of a track that is 130BPM 1A. The key of the track must surely go through other keys than 1A and 9A?

No, it doesn't even go to 9A. Between a 1% - 6% increase in tempo you are moving from 1A to 10A. Look at the keys that the numbers represent. 1A is A-flat minor. The 6% increase in tempo raises the pitch by a half step, B-minor, which is 10A.

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KrissO
01-28-2008

Oops, I realize I wrote other things than I meant, some mistakes.

I did actually mean within the minor ofcourse. As you both pointed out, changing from minor to major obviously won't be possible.
So how about 1A to 2A?

And also my math failed I see, I have no idea where I got 10A from (rough Monday I guess).
According to the +6% / +7 rule, 1A (A-flat minor) will give me 8A (A-minor) (and not 10A as you said, or did I miss something?)
Either way, you did answer my queston.

But, the 3% rule says; if at 3% exactly, use the 6% key.
But in theory, wouldn't 3% be 50/50 blend of A-flat minor and A-minor (1A / 8A) ? Or is there no such thing?
If a "blend" of two keys is possible... then it should open more choices on the camelot? :)

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
01-28-2008

So how about 1A to 2A?

My answer still applies. You are moving up 7 half steps, this would take a massive increase in tempo to achieve this much of an increase in pitch.

And also my math failed I see, I have no idea where I got 10A from (rough Monday I guess).
According to the +6% / +7 rule, 1A (A-flat minor) will give me 8A (A-minor) (and not 10A as you said, or did I miss something?)

No, you didn't miss anything. Looks like we both got bit by the Monday bug. 8A is what we both meant.

But in theory, wouldn't 3% be 50/50 blend of A-flat minor and A-minor (1A / 8A) ? Or is there no such thing?
If a "blend" of two keys is possible... then it should open more choices on the camelot? :)

The reason that 3% is the magic number is because you have now increased the pitch noticeably. I suppose there is the possibility of being exactly half-way between A-flat minor and A-minor, but the chances of being this close to right in the middle that keys from both tracks working are so small that I wouldn't bother. Unless it would create the most perfect mix that would end with everybody on the dancefloor writhing in ecstasty, it's probably not worth pursuing. But hey, don't let me stop you. Try it out and get back to us : )

Cheers,

Chad

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KrissO
01-31-2008

Okey, I understand. Thanks :D

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3DU
02-06-2008

Hi,

I mix with the old Pioneer 100s CDJs. It comes with the MASTER TEMPO effect, but when I use it, sometimes it feels like there´re two kicks in the same song, one playing ms. ahead of the other... I know this is because the beatstreching of the effect is not that good...

Will this improve or even get corrected if I buy better CDJs or is it pretty much the same on every CDJ?

Cheers,

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BenH
02-07-2008

3DU,

I have CDJ 1000 MK3's and the master tempo on these units in my opinion is better than my previously owned 800's so I expect the better CDJ's you get the better all of the features will be. The 100's are entry level players probably with less advanced electronics for calculating the algorithms to enforce locking the key of the track.

I also have Scratch Live and find the key lock feature as good as my 1000's so this might be an option for you rather than upgrading to 1000’s.

Regards

Ben

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3DU
02-08-2008

Hey thanx Ben! ;)

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mattyg
02-09-2008

"don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you.

Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious?

Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm.

Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything".

well said, this would really make the software a hell of alot easier to use!

also i dont think it would mean u had to stay at the same bpm throughout ur whole set if this were the case. from what i can gather if the system was set up like this - i.e. songs all calculated at same bpm, then the relationship between them would be the same for ANY bpm they were played at,

for example song A calculated at 128bpm as being 1A and song B 2A at same bpm, when both played at 120bpm song A would change to 8A and song B to 9A (not sure these figures r correct, just using them as an example) and they would still be compatible with each other. the actual keys wouldnt be important, they would just be there to show which songs would fit together...

am i correct in thinking this?

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faaro
02-09-2008

nice software.

but not good for house

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
02-25-2008

Hi Mattyg,

don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you.

We plan on adding this functionality around version 3.5. We are very excited about this feature, and think it will be a huge step for Mixed In Key.

nice software. but not good for house

Mixed In Key is designed to improve the mixing of all styles of music. We have lots of house DJs who use our software, including the original developer, Yakov. Why don't you think it's good for house?

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BenH
02-11-2008

I mix house and I can firmly say Mixed in Key has improved my ability to mix tracks seamlessly, I’m not musically trained and as a DJ I can (to an expect) know what tracks will sound right together, but with the high availability and cheapness of digital downloads now the qty of music I purchase has increased massively and I may not know the tracks as well as I did when I purchased a handful of records every couple of weeks. MIK just helps to remove the element of error with tracks clashing while I’m playing out.

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AntiTelo
03-08-2008

I'm workin on one mashup right now. One track has 126 bpm and 1B key. Other track has 132 bpm and 4B key. How to do them key-compatible ? If I increase tempo (without key-lock) of my 126 bpm track, what value of pitch i must use to do this track sounds in 4B key ?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
03-09-2008

First, you need to see what percentage change a 126-132 increase is. To do this, divide the number of bpm increase by the original tempo. You are increasing your track by 6 bpm, so 6/126=.0476, or 4.8% increase in tempo. This will raise your key by +7 on the Camelot wheel, so it will now be 8B, or C major.

Now I just look to see the least amount of steps I need to take to get it from C major to A-flat major. It is only -4 semi-tones away, so I would actually lower the pitch by 4 instead of raising it.

I hope this answered your question, please let us know if you need further assistance.

Cheers,

Chad

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AntiTelo
03-09-2008

Thanks for your reply Chad ! But I did't get the second part of your text.

If I will synchronize both of my tracks their speed will be 132 bpm. Keys are: 4B and 8B. And You wrote that I must lower pitch of my "8B-track" by 4 for getting 4 semitones backwards on Camelot wheel. (8B -> 4B). 4 pitch points of what ? Percent ?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
03-09-2008

If I will synchronize both of my tracks their speed will be 132 bpm. Keys are: 4B and 8B. And You wrote that I must lower pitch of my "8B-track" by 4 for getting 4 semitones backwards on Camelot wheel. (8B -> 4B). 4 pitch points of what ? Percent ?

Are you familiar with a piano? If you look at a piano, and find C (8B) and A-flat (4B) and then count out the number of white and black keys between them, you get 4. It's actually just a coincidence that this coincides with the number of steps on the Camelot wheel.

Each key on the piano (white and black) represents what's called a semitone or half-step in pitch. Most pitch shifting plug ins operate using semitones.

If you are using something based on pitch relative to tempo change, then I think it would be 20-24%.

Hope this helps!

Chad

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AntiTelo
03-09-2008

To my shame, I am not familiar with piano. I have to learn that. Anyway I figured out that You want to tell me. I'll try that out ! Thanks :)

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A is 4 PiMp
03-09-2008

Just curious faaro but why wouldnt it be good for house music?

Ive used MIK for all the genres that I mix (house, psy/trance, breaks, drum and bass). And to tell you the truth I havent heard a key clash in any of my mixes since I got it on my computer.

If its not working for you, you must be doing something wrong

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Rips
03-24-2008

Great tutorial, thanks Yakov.

Personally I would tend to recommend avoiding the master tempo on Pioneer CD-J's though. Even at 0% you can usually hear a difference as soon as this is turned on. For instance you may notice the bass becomes slightly muffled.

This may vary depending on the type of music but it has always been my experience with House, Breaks, Techno and Trance.

People should also remember when mixing there are ways to do large key & pitch jumps without using harmonic mixing, experiment with fast cuts, rapid EQ adjustments and mixing into or out of breakdowns.

Otherwise if two tracks are not working together or require large pitch adjustments perhaps those two tracks do not belong together and it is best to find another track that actually sounds right.

At the end of the day regardless of the rules if it sounds good it sounds good. ;)

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walidnasser
03-24-2008

theres something that i hope someone would be able to clarify for me once and for all, when someone refers to pitch what does that mean exactly?

how does pitch effect a tracks musical key? also how do you change a tracks pitch for the musical keys to match (i dont mean shifting the tempo by 6% and jumping 7 semitones)? is this done through the pitch effect on the mixer or through the pitch control on traktor scratch?

again if it is done by either of those methods then is there some sort of basis for calculating how much you should alter your pitch to get to the desired musical key?

help is much appreciated!

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
03-24-2008

when someone refers to pitch what does that mean exactly?

Pitch is the perceived fundamental frequency of a sound. The fundamental frequency is the main note that you hear.

how does pitch effect a tracks musical key?

When people are referring to adjusting the pitch of a track, they are talking about the pitch of every note in the song. A musical key is made up of a certain number of set pitches. Increasing the overall pitch of a track will increase the key.

also how do you change a tracks pitch for the musical keys to match (i dont mean shifting the tempo by 6% and jumping 7 semitones)? is this done through the pitch effect on the mixer or through the pitch control on traktor scratch?

It sounds like you want to adjust the pitch without effecting the tempo. I know that Traktor can adjust tempo without effecting key, but I'm not sure if the opposite is possible. The effect you need is what's called a pitch shifter, and it adjusts the overall pitch of whatever you run through it. I know that Protools has a plug in for this, and there are mixers out there with this feature as well, although I don't know how well they work. You are probably better off changing the pitch of a track ahead of time if you know what you need it to be.

is there some sort of basis for calculating how much you should alter your pitch to get to the desired musical key?

Yes, there is. Most pitch shifters operate on semitones, so for every semitone that you raise the pitch, you go up +7 on the camelot wheel. So to get 8B, C Major to D Major, this is +14 on the camelot wheel, which is 2 semitones. Just remember that you need to add +7 for every semitone, you can't just say that 10B is +2 from 8B, it's got to be a factor of 7. Just keep adding 7 until you get to the key you want. The number of times you add 7 is the number of semitones you need to raise the pitch.

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walidnasser
03-25-2008

thanks for the explanation chad, much appreciated.

regarding pitch shifts however, i was actually referring to the pitch effect on my DJM-600 and Pitch alteration embedded in Traktor Scratch (using the +/- Keys on your keyboard or the pitch buttons next to the phase meter)

Does anyone have any idea how to accurately use either of those? the pitch effect seems tricky cos i cant seem to tell what time / how much effect 'strength' is needed to alter your track to the next semitone.

Thanks!

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DJ Baruch
04-06-2008

Good Job Guys

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Sascha Lupeski
04-10-2008

HEY GUYS !!!
When does this thing going to be added to mixed in key ?

Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 130bpm.

Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything".

well said, this would really make the software a hell of alot easier to use!

I play House music and i play arround 128bpm would be great if you answere me!!!???

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
04-10-2008

Hi Sascha,

I wish I could give you a date, but we don't have one set in stone yet. Currently we are working on improving our key detection algorithm, updating it to more effectively report hip-hop, psy-trance, and drum & bass styles of music. We have also been working on a Platinum Notes update, since we have gotten some updates to some of the software that we license for it. I am also currently training a room full of monkey's to code, so updates should be coming a lot faster and more frequently in the future.
; )

Cheers,

Chad

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DSP
04-15-2008

so how many bpm is one key? cause i dont have cd players now at home so i cant see the 6% and all those details so i have to make my munbers first.... thanks

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
04-15-2008

Finding what a 6% change is takes a little math, so warm up your calculator : ) First you need to know the original BPM, and the BPM that you want to change it to. Let us say that we have a track that is at 128 BPM, and we want it to be playing at 135 BPM. This is a 7 BPM increase, so we divide this number by the original BPM: 7/128=.05468.......which is about 5.5%, and +7 on the camelot wheel.

Cheers,

Chad

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MSK
04-24-2008

Hi...im new here....just wondering that ive ended up with quite a few tracks which have "multiple keys" not sure what the correct way of saying it would be...but something like 5A/6B or 7B/8A.... what does that really mean? that they belong to both of them? or i gotta pitch up or down to use either one of them

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
04-24-2008

Multiple keys refer to probabilities. For example the track could have a 51% chance of being 5A and a 49% chance for 6B. When it is so close we give you both keys so you have more mixing options. These tracks can come in very handy for changing keys without having to use the traditional methods of going around the Camelot wheel or doing energy boosts.

Best,

Chad

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longdog
05-07-2008

Chad / Yakov,

I've read through this forum which is useful as it's another element of harmonic mixing I wasn't aware of (and probably one I wish didn't exist!).

Calculating these 6% changes sitting down at home is all well but the idea of doing this on the spot whilst playing out at a party or club makes my head hurt a bit. In that situation as well as finding the next tune to play, in a compatible key, I then have to calculate the % shift against number of bpms, and then add or subtract by 7 or more on the camelot scale. It sounds like a bit of a nightmare!

Do you honestly do this in your head when you're playing out? Not to be flippant but if this is the case do you have a very good head for numbers or a calculator in your pocket?!

What I am asking essentially is how do you find it applying this method in a live DJ'ing situation, as the pressure which occurs sometimes from finding the next suitable tune wouldn't be helped, I imagine, whilst having to conduct mental arithmetic. Is there any quick, clever maths shortcut you apply to this rule?

I've lost my edge on maths since school though so maybe this is only good for those with a penchant for numbers, and maybe I need to get some practice! Grateful if you could let me know though.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
05-07-2008

We feel your pain, trust me :)

After doing enough of these calculations, you can get a sense of a percentage change, especially if you play in a certain range. For example, any track you have that is at 128 changed to 135 is going to be the same percentage change for all the tracks.

In the future, we are going to add in a key shift calculator that will allow you to simply change the bpm of a track in MIK and it will give you the new key. In my opinion it's going to be the best thing to happen to MIK since the new algorithm we launched with 3.0, so stay tuned!

-Chad

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longdog
06-11-2008

Chad,

Thanks for getting back to me on this question, and apologies for the delay in acknowledging your reply!

L

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duroboy
06-14-2008

So does this mean, say instead of using the 6% rule you could stick to the 3% rule if the track that is playing for eg... original key/tempo is 130 - 11A and the track that your going to mix into is 136 -11A ... it is therefore ok to just split the difference and come up to 133 and down 133 and stay in the same key?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
06-15-2008

I just answered this question for someone the other day. Initially it sounds like it would work, but if you think about it for a couple of minutes you will see why it won't.

Both tracks are in the same key, but at different speeds. One track needs to be sped up (raised in pitch) and the other track needs to be slowed down (lowered in pitch). Both of these actions is making the track farther from its original key, and in opposite directions, resulting in a clashing mix. It would work if they were closer in tempo, but I think that 6 bpm is just too much of a gap. You could try using a key lock function if your setup has one, or repitch one of the tracks using recording software. Traktor, Live, and Pro Tools all have the capabilities that you would need to do this.

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duroboy
06-16-2008

Ooops sorry Chad to make you write the same response again.... lol .... i undersatnd now Thanx for the info :-)

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
06-16-2008

Hey, no problem :-)

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johnalivein
06-17-2008

hey yakov, chad p i just wanted to knw about beat matching on a cdj 1000 if i changed my tempo i change with it the pitch so plz tell me how can i beat match on a cdj 1000!!

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
06-17-2008

Check out this video from our friend Ellaskins from djtutor.com. He explains the master tempo feature on the CDJ 800, but it should be basically the same thing on the 1000.

Cheers,

Chad

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tekkio
06-18-2008

What if I wanted to mix 2 tracks together which share the same key, but not the tempo? Would it be best just to adjust the tempo towards the mean of the two tempos?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
06-18-2008

It depends on the difference in tempo. If the total percentage change is <3%, then you should be ok. Any more than that might make them clash. Look up just a couple of posts and I was talking about this same thing.

Best,

Chad

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174whore
08-09-2008

hi im new to this and just need reassurance im doing this right

here is what im doing

i mix drum and bass music and i use ableton live to make every song 174 bpm then i bounce them to mp3 so every song i play is perfectly beat matched.

then i use mik the find the key of my 174bpm tracks

and then based on my results i plan my mix according to the camelot wheel.

my question is as long as my tracks are 174 does any of the above stuff in this thread apply to me or can i just do what i have described in my post with perfect results every time?????

thank you

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-09-2008

If you are keying all of your tracks at 174 BPM, then you don't need to worry about how tempo effects key, unless you need to play at another tempo of course ;)

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DJ Kaos
08-14-2008

Hi all,
Great read. Definately invest....
Any Comments from breakbeat Djs ?

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Lirou
08-14-2008

Just a tip for Traktor users (other softs may have it as well):

You can change the key of a song independently of its tempo. Just open the "Key" Panel.
1% change in the "key panel" is one semitone.

OR 1% change in the "key" panel = 6% change in the pitch (without master tempo 'on')

* obviously, it only works when master tempo is 'on'.

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MissDVS
08-18-2008

Hi! Ive been using this for a few months and thought it was working really good but after fully reading this realize that I may be using it wrong!??

I had a different way of trying to figure out percentage like this:

140bpm/135bpm = 1.037 essentially 3.7% so I move my key 7 down to 135 bmp.

What happens say, if I pitch a track from 125 to 135 = 7.4% I still only move it up 7 on the wheel? seems like a pretty far jump in octaves to be accurate isnt it? or is it just the greater the percentage from 6% the less likely the track will be keyed exactly?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-19-2008

What happens say, if I pitch a track from 125 to 135 = 7.4% I still only move it up 7 on the wheel? seems like a pretty far jump in octaves to be accurate isnt it?

It seems extreme, but you shouldn't have to go +14 until over a 9% change.

or is it just the greater the percentage from 6% the less likely the track will be keyed exactly?

Nope, it should be linear.

Cheers,
Chad

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Lil' Mike
08-20-2008

Friday i played probably my first set 100% in key...started my set at 1 and finished on 11... Beautiful... Had a very good set and landed my first residency ever...

Sweet
Lil' Mike

www.djlilmike.co.za (Just launched)

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-20-2008

That's awesome!

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Richie
08-23-2008

I stick with the 3% rule or around +-4BPM. I play house and trance using this rule (ranging 130-140BPM).

On the CDJ, +-3% is about 4BPM. Most tracks in certain genres only require a 2-4 BPM change to match tempos together a lot of the time, so no more adjustment than +-3% on the pitch slider.

In Ableton it's totally different. So you have to use your ears. If it's sour, I use the complex warp mode to lock the pitch in.

The CDJ's Master Tempo sounds horrible and processed if you move past 2% in my opinion, negating the need to even use the feature in the first place for a small tempo change.

It depends entirely on what you're running. Ableton and CDJ's differ in the way they process a track to speed it up or down. Which one is better at it is a matter of opinion. But the only device that really gives a true, unprocessed tempo shift is the old turntable. no electronic processors involved.

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leio
08-31-2008

If im using ableton live, should i be analysing the songs i have warped in beats or complex mode or should i be analysing songs in their original tempo straight from beatport?
How do i go about getting the warped songs back into the application (mixed in key) to get them analysed after warping?
Is there a way to have mixed in key interface with ableton live?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-31-2008

If im using ableton live, should i be analysing the songs i have warped in beats or complex mode or should i be analysing songs in their original tempo straight from beatport?

Warping in Ableton Live doesn't effect the pitch of a song, so you can analyze the original file before warping and use those results.

How do i go about getting the warped songs back into the application (mixed in key) to get them analysed after warping?

This shouldn't be necessary, but if you really want to do it, then you can. Drag the warped song onto an audio track, select it, and choose Export Audio from the file menu.

Is there a way to have mixed in key interface with ableton live?

No. Mixed In Key is made to work as a stand alone program.

Cheers,
Chad

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RockyD
08-31-2008

@BenH, I have the CDJ800s and haven't thought the Master Tempo was that bad, I must go try the 1000s MK3s and see if I can notice an improvement.

Have you tried Traktor key lock at all?
I've been reading up on whether to go for Serato or Traktor and a day after placing an order for Traktor I stumble on a thread suggesting that key lock is far from Pioneer CDJ quality. :(

You've said it's good in Scratch Live (that is Serato right?) what sort of CPU/RAM etc do you have? What's your latency set to please? Do you use vinyl or cd control media please?

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jimmy2mac
09-07-2008

hi there, just getting into all this harmonic mixing and I'm not quite sure about it yet, so just looking to understand a bit more. i put my songs through mixed in key and got back all the tracks keys and tempos..
so i have 2 tracks i want to mix, there both 10a but the bpm on one of them is 128 and the other is 126. so how to you get they tracks to mix if one track is running faster than the other one!!

could someone please let me know? so i can start to use this properly. also i have cdj 400s with master tempo and I've seen people say it affects the music but you can not tell the difference when it is on or off..

many thanks James..

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-07-2008

Hi James,

Mixing a 126 BPM with a 128 BPM will work fine. The way to check this is a little mathematical, but once you check a couple of tracks, you'll get a good sense of what will work and what won't. So, let's say you want to mix the 126 10A track to 128 10A.

1. Subtract the old tempo from the new tempo: 128-126=2
2. Divide that number by the original tempo: 2/126=.0158.....1.5%
3. If the percentage is less than 3%, which in this case it is, then the tracks will mix fine. If it is greater than 3%, then add 7 to the Camelot Code to see what track you are now in.

Cheers,
Chad

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Leon C
09-15-2008

Hello. I got a quick question. How much pitch is needed to get the song (let's say its in A1) to get to the same key but an octave higher?
Thx

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-15-2008

How much pitch is needed to get the song (let's say its in A1) to get to the same key but an octave higher?

A lot! You would have to go around the Camelot Wheel 12 times by adding +7 until you get back to your original key, adding 6% pitch for each time you add 7. Another way to look at it is 6% pitch is a semi-tone increase, you need 12 semi-tones to go up an octave, so you need 72% pitch increase to get to an octave higher :)

Best,
Chad

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Weizy
09-18-2008

Chad,

Wow you reply to everyone's questions on this thread. That is very nice of you! Sorry to have to ask another question of you...

So according to what you have said in regards the 'Warp' function in Ableton it sounds like warping does not affect the Key that a individual track is at.

So for example I have the master tempo set to 129.00bpm and I have a bunch of tracks that have original bpms of 125.00. So after warping all of these tracks to 129 you are saying that the Key of those tracks remains the same?

I guess I just assumed that even using Ableton Live that I would have to use the 3%/6% rule...

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-18-2008

So for example I have the master tempo set to 129.00bpm and I have a bunch of tracks that have original bpms of 125.00. So after warping all of these tracks to 129 you are saying that the Key of those tracks remains the same?

Yeah, but there are a couple of different warp modes, one of them is re-pitch. This mode will change the pitch of the track when warping, so then you would need to use the 3%/6% rule. One thing to make note of - the default warp mode is usually set to 'beats' and this will make most songs sound goofy. I switch the mode to 'tones' or 'complex' when working with whole songs. You can switch the mode with the drop down box write under the warp button and tempo.

Cheers,
Chad

PS: Thanks for the props!

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wes_mcgee
09-18-2008

Agreed with the above, Thanks to chad for explaining this.

OK, so one semitone up or down equals 7 steps up or down on the camelot wheel.

So if I want to shift 1 step on the wheel(up) can I just go up 1/7 of a semitone? Most pitch shifters(ableton) have a "cents" control. Mine gives 50 cents to the semitone(no idea why). so 1/7 is approximately 7 cents. My ears tell me this works, but it is hard to be sure. Any thoughts?

Obviously it also depends on the accuracy of the detected keys....while I am a huge fan, we all know the software isn't perfect(and some producers aren't careful about keeping all parts of a track in key). I think it is pretty good though.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-19-2008

So if I want to shift 1 step on the wheel(up) can I just go up 1/7 of a semitone?

1/7 of a semitone would barely even be an audible change. The only way I know of to shift a song to another key is by going around the Camelot wheel by adding +7. Let me try to explain why this is.

For my example, we'll use 8B, C major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B). This key is all of the white keys on a piano. The adjacent key on the Camelot Wheel is 9B, or G major. G major has one black key added, which is F# (sharp). Here is the whole scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. So, to get an F# into our song in the key of C, we need to raise our F note by a semitone. We can't just change the F note though without changing every note in the song with it, so now every note is a semitone higher. Our C Major scale now looks like this: C#, D#, F, F#, G#, A#, C. To get a song in C major to be in G major, you need to keep adding a semitone until that first note is G, only then will you have all of the notes be properly in G major. Due to the way that the Western music system is setup, a semitone is the smallest increment when you are dealing with keys.

Most pitch shifters(ableton) have a "cents" control. Mine gives 50 cents to the semitone(no idea why). so 1/7 is approximately 7 cents. My ears tell me this works, but it is hard to be sure. Any thoughts?

Check out the Wikipedia page on cents. This should help to explain a little bit of what is going on. It's basically just a mathematical way of looking at how we hear music and the difference between two notes. They also have some audio samples that I found really interesting to listen to. You can just barely tell the difference once you get up to 10 cents.

I hope I've shed a little light for you. It's a complicated subject, so if you want me to clarify anything I've said in this post let me know.

Cheers,
Chad

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wes_mcgee
09-19-2008

ah, I see it is not as easy as I thought. But I already knew it wasn't going to be perfect. I was working with a track shifted 35 cents, and it seemed to work(that article describe 20 semitones as audible to normal people, thats us!). Another user quickly noted I could have gone the other direction and hit an exact semitone. I am getting it now ;).

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carpyjames
09-20-2008

Sorry if MIK already does this but;

I'm just getting back into DJing, and missed the 'Digital' explosion. I've read through this thread and what would seem be helpful within the software is a table for each of your tracks showing what harmonic pitch they'll be at for given % increments on our 'turntable' and also it's BPM.

EXAMPLE
DJ MIK "Tune"
0% 128bpm route pitch 1A
+1% 129bpm pitch 1A
+2% 131bpm pitch 1A etc etc
+8% 139bpm pitch 2B (for example)

Now you'd be able to instantly see which tracks are in tune with the one you are currently playing.

Example
track one is playing at +4% and its tune pitch is now 2C and the tempo is 134bpm

All you need to do now is search (with a key search function per BPM) through your tracks to find which ones are acceptably in key (2c or within an 'hour') at 134bpm. Once you select the track it would tell you that you need to use +2.5% pitch increase to achieve both the required bpm and harmonic pitch.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-20-2008

I just wanted to offer a little clarification for the above post...

0% 128bpm route pitch 1A
+1% 129bpm pitch 1A
+2% 131bpm pitch 1A etc etc

Yes....

+8% 139bpm pitch 2B (for example)

No. A 1A track that has been increased by 8% would be in the key of 8A, not 2B. Increasing the tempo of a track will never switch a song from minor to major. The increase past 6% pushes the key +7, to 8A. To get a track to be in the key of the adjacent Camelot number, you need to increase the pitch of the song by 42%.

Now that I've clarified that, I understand what you are suggesting. We have a great idea on how to implement this, and it should appear in a future version.

Cheers,
Chad

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carpyjames
09-21-2008

Hi Chad,

I didn't work out the pitches, just used them to suggest that there are changes as you increase the tempo. Sorry for the confusion.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

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carpyjames
09-21-2008

Is this correct for a track in 8a?

0 - 2% = 8A

3 - 8% = 3A

9 - 12% = 10A

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-22-2008

Yep, you've got it.

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carpyjames
09-23-2008

Thank you

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djchez
09-24-2008

Im a dj in Toronto Canada. never really had an issue mixing in key but no one is perfect. bought this program just to see how it works. No dj plays their sets at 0%. The first track will always be +whatever%. Do you think when in front of a club you have time to stand there and try to calculate how much precent above 0 is equal the what tone the camalot track is in... And then its not done there. You have to do the same for ever single track. It really sounds ridiculous to me. If this is supposed to save you time its not. And in the end it is NOT even guaranteed that the 2 tracks you want to mix together will even mix right even following the Camalot chart. You still have to sit home and try mixing all the possible combinations together. Doesnt any dj do this anyways.
Unless i am mistaken this program was a waist of 50 dollers.
I just bought this program yesterday so havnt had alot of time with it. Please correct me if i am wrong!!
djchez

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-24-2008

Hi djchez,

Like any new technique, mixing harmonically takes practice. Start with the basics, like mixing tracks in the same key and same tempo. Then move on to more advanced techniques dealing with tempo and key changes. Calculating these changes may seem difficult at first, but once you've done it a few times you will start to see what key a given track will be in without too much work. It won't be in the next update, but we are also planning on adding a key calculator to the MIK Collections browser, so that you will be able to see what the key of any track at a given tempo would be.

Cheers,
Chad

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djchez
09-24-2008

ok ..... so if i play a track recorded at 122 bpm but at a much higher speed like any normal dj lets say 128 bpm i am 6 bpm higher which then i have to calculate the percentage differance right? ( i guess i will have to carry a calculator with me behind the booth ) Then once i have that figure and the Key of the track (as per Camalot chart) i have to multiply the key 7 times for every 3% (some poeple even arguing 2% is better) the original track tempo has been changed????
Then again, and again and again....
Please tell me i am missing something or i want a refund!!!!!!

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-24-2008

Hi dj chez,

We got your email and will respond shortly.

Best regards,

Chad

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Dj Snafu
10-18-2008

I've had MIK now for quite awhile and thought I was using the Camelot Wheel correctly.. now I'm not sure but I'd like to check to make sure.

Left the computer and sold my Xponent. Bought a Denon HS5500 and I'm so happy. To lock the key you have to hit 'Key Adjust'. Unfortunately there is no adjusting the key like you could in Torq but thats ok.

I do not know keys or how they work together, this is why the Camelot Wheel is so great for me.

So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be:

6A, 7B, 8A Right?

6B & 8B This is wrong? right?

9A would be 2 semitones up?

5A would be 2 semitones down?

2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost?

12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy?

9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong?

I would like to put an end to my confusion. Thanks

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
10-18-2008

So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be:

6A, 7B, 8A Right?

Correct.

6B & 8B This is wrong? right?

Typically yes. It's not that it won't work, but going from minor to major in that way will usually clash. It can provide an interesting effect sometimes though, so don't rule it out completely.

9A would be 2 semitones up?

This is an energy boost too.

5A would be 2 semitones down?

Yep, and you would be lowering the energy.

2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost?

12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy?

Right.

9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong?

Yes, it's 2 semitones up, but would probably sound a little different from a usual energy boost since you're switching from minor to major.

I think the most important thing to remember is that rules are made to be broken. It's helpful to know them as a guideline, and to understand why things sound the way they do. It's not good to let them limit your creativity though, don't stop experimenting.

Cheers,
Chad

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paul_oz
10-27-2008

Hey... have been using mik for a short while now so still only new to it.. have recently upgraded to version 4 and find that my main issue at the moment is determining the new key if I increase / decrease the pitch...

Don't really know if it's do-able or not.. but thought why not for version 5 include a function where you can adjust tempo via mik, which will then determine the key automatically for you, saving you more time...

It's easier said than done I guess and I really should stop being so lazy and just learn more.. but for the new or just plain lazy people (like me) it may not be a bad idea..?

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
10-27-2008

Don't really know if it's do-able or not.. but thought why not for version 5 include a function where you can adjust tempo via mik, which will then determine the key automatically for you, saving you more time...

I know exactly what you are talking about, we do have plans for adding a feature like this. Stay tuned ;)

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djluckyb
10-31-2008

Chad,

About this little exchange. Look for the break line as it is where you both lost me.

So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be:

6A, 7B, 8A Right?

Correct.

6B & 8B This is wrong? right?

Typically yes. It's not that it won't work, but going from minor to major in that way will usually clash. It can provide an interesting effect sometimes though, so don't rule it out completely.

9A would be 2 semitones up?

This is an energy boost too.

5A would be 2 semitones down?

Yep, and you would be lowering the energy.

____________________________________________________
HOW DO YOU GO TO 7A ON THE WHEEL TO 2A AND CALL IT ONE SEMITONE UP IT IS CLEAR ACROSS THE CIRCLE. WHAT AM I MISSING? DITTO FOR 12A AND ALL THAT FOLLOWS.

THANKS

2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost?

12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy?

Right.

9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong?

Yes, it's 2 semitones up, but would probably sound a little different from a usual energy boost since you're switching from minor to major.

I think the most important thing to remember is that rules are made to be broken. It's helpful to know them as a guideline, and to understand why things sound the way they do. It's not good to let them limit your creativity though, don't stop experimenting.

Cheers,
Chad

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
11-01-2008

HOW DO YOU GO TO 7A ON THE WHEEL TO 2A AND CALL IT ONE SEMITONE UP IT IS CLEAR ACROSS THE CIRCLE. WHAT AM I MISSING? DITTO FOR 12A AND ALL THAT FOLLOWS.

7A is D minor, one semitone up is E flat minor, aka 2A. It's all related to scales and the way they are organized. Look at your Camelot Wheel and notice how the actual names of keys relate to Camelot Code. Let's use 8B for an example. 8B to 9B is C major to G major, and there is only one note different between these two scales, that is why they mix harmonically. If you go up a semitone on a piano though from C, you do not get G. You get C#, which is +7 on the Camelot Wheel, aka 3B. It's complicated if you don't play piano, which is why we use the Camelot system.

Cheers,
Chad

Reply

Architect
11-11-2008

That would depend on the BPM of the song... The lower the BPM the less would need to change the BPM to change the key (in numbers...) but the percentage would be the same (6%=1/2 step or a semitone).
6% of 90 is not the same as 6% of 140...
And 6% of 100 is not the same as 6% of 150.
Changing a song at 100 BPM up a half step would require shifting the tempo up to 106 BPM; however, changing a song at 150 BPM up a half step would require shifting the tempo up to 159 BPM.

Reply

Nazzid
12-28-2008

Examples

Two songs in F Minor that have roughly the same BPMs: 130 and 131. We can harmonically mix them together because the tempo difference is less than 3%.

Next up are two songs in A Minor with different tempos. First song is 128 BPM and the second is 136 BPM. To beatmatch the slower song with the faster song, we’ll have to increase its tempo by exactly 6.25%. This will move the slower song one key to the right, making it B-flat Minor rather than A Minor. The new keys will no longer result in a harmonic mix because A Minor (8A) and B-Flat Minor (3A) are not compatible Camelot numbers.

Thats not true, 8A plus 7 equals 3A. That is compatible. You even say it in the advanced/boost energy mixing section. You should reread that. Thanx

Reply

Joe Optic
01-22-2009

Hello Yakov.I have been using the 3 bpm technique for 2 years now,ie increasing or decreasing the bpm by 3 .This technique is used by camelot.Can this technique be used for all dance music.

Reply

Doseun
01-30-2009

Hi. I just started using this system and I have the master tempo feature. But I was noticing there are several different kinds of each key and I was curious if I wanted to use the 6% rule for even more options, how do I know what is what on a keyboard? Cuz there are flats, sharps, majors, and minors. Maybe a picture for reference would be good to.

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
02-01-2009

Hi Doseun,

Thanks for posting, I am happy to help. Yakov posted pictures of a keyboard in the original post. I'm not sure exactly what more you are looking for... Changing the key of a minor song will always still give you a minor song, and the same goes for songs in a major key if that is what you are asking. If that doesn't help, please feel free to ask away and I will do my best to answer.

Cheers,
Chad P

Reply

dj john
02-01-2009

great job....can i use the method of editing the properties of the track or i mean to copy the bpm and key of my next track into a playing track to give me a good mix?

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
02-01-2009

Sorry dj john, I don't quite understand your question. Would you mind offering a little bit of clarification? I will be happy to help as soon as I have more information.

Thanks,
Chad P

Reply

GolanT
03-22-2009

Hi there,

Great software, it has improved my mixes, no doubt.
I have a question: the "MASTER TEMPO" function in pioneer is actually "KEY ADJUST" in Denon, right?

Thanks.

Reply

Jamie
08-24-2009

I have just bought this software and after reading this find that it may be pretty much useless to me.

most of the time I will be playing track at around 180bpm but these tracks in original from my have been as low as 165bpm.

its quite normal for me to start a set on +5% on the decks/cdj's etc etc and most of the time it will get faster by the end of the set.

Most of the examples shown in here are for small bpm changes from 130-135 bpm etc etc so is it possible for this software to be of use to me?

I mostly use cdj 1000's and Traktor scratch pro if it makes any difference to using the software.

any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks

Jamie

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-24-2009

Hi Jamie,

Thanks for posting, I am happy to help. Mixing at the speeds you mentioned is no different. A song at 165 BPM is going to be exactly one semitone (+7 on the Camelot Wheel) higher at 175 BPM. It's actually pretty easy at this speed, because it's all based on 10 BPM increases. A 5 BPM increase is going to be half of a semitone, so could also be considered a semitone increase. Since you are using Traktor you always have the option of using key lock though, making all of this obsolete.

Cheers,
Chad P

Reply

Jamie
08-24-2009

Im having some real issues running traktor at the minute and really have not had the chance to use the functions it has.

ive just tried the key lock though and its less than great..

I have tried the mixing in key though and Im pretty impressed with the sound it gives - many thanks for that

Reply

Pilip
09-12-2009

Hi:) Is it possible that when I have a song at 126bpm - 5A and I change the tempo by 1% or even 0,8% it changes the key to 8B after analyzing it again in MiK?

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
09-14-2009

Hi Pilip,

Pretty much anything is possible. Normally such small tempo changes shouldn't effect the key, but if it is borderline to begin with this isn't totally unexpected.

Cheers,
Chad P

Reply

CMJ
09-24-2009

Has there been any progress on Mattyg's thought about having MIK automatically calculating a generic tempo & key?

Reply

CMJ
10-06-2009

Hello... No response?

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
10-06-2009

Has there been any progress on Mattyg's thought about having MIK automatically calculating a generic tempo & key?

This is an idea we've had for a long time but we have not yet decided whether or not to include it in our software.

Cheers,
Chad P

Reply

Dj duxie
10-09-2009

Sur if this is the case then wy did i even bother buying this program if master tempo does it for me anyways

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
10-09-2009

Master tempo doesn't automatically match keys - it just prevents keys from changing due to changes in tempo.

Reply

Paul D
11-09-2009

can i confirm that the following information is in fact incorrect.

(from you rinitial post)

If your original song was recorded in F Minor, increasing the tempo by 6% will move the song one key to the right to give you G-Flat Minor.

This is equivalent to adding 7 to your current Camelot number. Since F Minor has an equivalent keycode of 4A, adding 7 will give you the result of 11A. The piano roll above shows you that 11A is indeed equivalent to Gbm.

---- if i add 7 to f minor i get F-sharp minor, u state G Flat minor ??

is the first paragraph incorrect ?

i dont veen have a g flat minor on my grid lol

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
11-09-2009

if i add 7 to f minor i get F-sharp minor, u state G Flat minor ??

is the first paragraph incorrect ?

i dont veen have a g flat minor on my grid lol

F-sharp and G-flat are the same thing :)

Reply

Echo
11-22-2009

The 3%/6% Rule; Tried & Tested!

Someone may have done this before but I tried a little experiment using VDJ. With the Keylock off, I recorded a one minute clip from the middle of a tune with the pitch at 0. Starting from the same cue point each time and increasing the pitch by 1% (or as close to 1% as I possibly could get) I recorded 12 more one minute clips. Then decreasing the pitch from 0 by 1% at a time I recorded a further 12 clips.

So I ended up with 25 one minute clips at 1% intervals, which I then put through my MIK programme to get the key results. Here's what happened:

The track, Son of Raw - Black Man In Space [Sax Mix] was in 4A

The one minute clip also came back as 4A;
Below are the results in linear order;

-12.1% - 2A or 3A - 110.74
-11.1% - 7A or 2A - 111.97
-10% - 2A - 113.45
-9% - 2A - 114.68
-8% - 10A - 115.92
-7% - 10A - 117.15
-6.1% - 12B - 118.37
-5.1% - 9A - 119.6
-4.1% - 9A - 120.82
-3.1% - 9A or 8A - 122.07
-2% - 4A - 123.54
-1% - 4A - 124.76
0% - 4A - 126
+1% - 4A - 127.22
+2% - 4A - 128.46
+3.1% - 4A or 11A - 129.92
+4.1% - 11A - 131.17
+5.1% - 11A - 132.38
+6.1% - 11A - 133.62
+7% - 11A - 134.85
+8% - 11A - 136.09
+9% - 11A - 137.32
+10% - 7A - 138.55
+11.1% - 6A - 140.04
+12.1% - 6A - 141.26

For me the results are pretty good. I would rarely have to (or want to) increase/decrease a tune by any more than plus/minus 5%. And almost everything within that spectrum on this example is spot on. (with the exception of "-3.1% - 9A or 8A" which is pretty close anyway)

I know "-6.1% - 12B - 118.37" makes no sense as it dictates a change from minor to major, but I suspect that has more to do with the dreadful distorted sound of a saxaphone being slowed down by over 6% it's natural tempo.

Anyway, this experiment has helped me understand the 3% Rule a little better, hopefully it will be helpful to someone else.

I plan to do a similar experiment with a track that has two keys to see what happens!

Reply

DJ Pro Ben
12-03-2009

So when's that BPM/key calculator coming out? ;)

Reply

bigboyblunden
12-06-2009

Can sum1 plzzz help me!!! i am useing pioneer cdj 400's at the moment...in the top right hand corner of the screen is a pitch control percentage gage.if i gage the track i am playing eg 134.99 bmp 8A at 0.00% if i then increase this past 3.00% do i ad 7 on the camelot wheel..?is this the 3% rule...? Thankyou Tom

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
12-07-2009

if i gage the track i am playing eg 134.99 bmp 8A at 0.00% if i then increase this past 3.00% do i ad 7 on the camelot wheel..?is this the 3% rule...?

Yes, that is exactly correct. You can also use the master tempo button to keep the song at it's original key when making pitch adjustments.

Reply

bigboyblunden
12-08-2009

Nice 1 thanx very much for the help!!jsut 1 more thing.i have seen sum1 has posted to say that if increasing past 2.00% u will have a more key mached mix...?better 2 use 2.00% rathen then 3.00%....?thanku!

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
12-08-2009

better 2 use 2.00% rathen then 3.00%....?

It all depends on the tracks you are mixing, but most of the time adding 7 to your Camelot key after going past 3% is appropriate.

Reply

bigboyblunden
12-08-2009

Thanx again for your help.its really good that you guys reply..and so quickly.just 1 morew qustion for u luvly people...if increasing tempo past 3.00% is adding 7 .... then past 6.00% wud be 14 spaces around the camelot whell?Thnx

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
12-08-2009

if increasing tempo past 3.00% is adding 7 .... then past 6.00% wud be 14 spaces around the camelot whell?

You've got the right idea, but your math is a little off. 6% is where you are exactly at one semitone higher. We use 3% as the halfway point, whereby you are closer to the new higher key than you were to the original. You need to go another 3% beyond 6% to pass the same threshold, so you wouldn't add another 7 to the Camelot wheel until passing a 9% total pitch adjustment.

Reply

bigboyblunden
12-10-2009

so bassically....over 3.00% add 7 ...then if a huge increasment past 9.00% add 14 ... thankyou very much!uve been much help!!!!

Reply

dj amm
12-26-2009

I usually play psy trance with BPM of around 145. but some songs that i analize through mixed in key give a result of around 72 bpm. will this error affect the key detection as well?

Reply

w1llth3thr1ll
01-01-2010

>>>>Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm.

MattyG and others said really well the same thing i was thinking! I was considering some more difficult options like repitching and analying each track to 128 just to get its "relative" pitch at a fixed bpm, for comparison purposes while mixing (not that i would stick to a fixed bpm).

So is this feature coming anytime soon? or did i miss it somehow?

+1 on this feature request!!!

and big props to chad and yakov for doing such a good job on keeping up with everyones questions and comments...

Reply

Dj SI7737
01-19-2010

Hi all, im newer in mixed in key and harmonic concepts, i´ve djing Trance about 4 years for hobby and now im decide to make this hobby my professional choice, and start play Tech House. I always question me about music´s combination by Tom, and i make this listening tracks and using my opinion.
After reading and learning how to use MIK, please correct me if my example is wrong.

Let´s suppose im playing a track 128 bpm - MIK give me 12A Camelot key for this track.

So i have these options for the next track to make harmonic mix:
133 to 136 bpm (+3%)= 10A/11A/12A/11B/6A
125 to 132 bpm = 11A/1A/12B/7A/12A
124 to 120 bpm (-3%) = 1A/12A/1B/8A/2A

It´s right?

Its just an example and i know we have to experience some thing out of this rule.

cheers and gratz for this nice Community and software.

Reply

Chad P (Mixed In Key)
01-19-2010

Let´s suppose im playing a track 128 bpm - MIK give me 12A Camelot key for this track.

So i have these options for the next track to make harmonic mix:
133 to 136 bpm (+3%)= 10A/11A/12A/11B/6A
125 to 132 bpm = 11A/1A/12B/7A/12A
124 to 120 bpm (-3%) = 1A/12A/1B/8A/2A

It´s right?

A 128 BPM track at 3 to 6% is going to be playing at 131.8 to about 135.5 BPM. This should make it compatible with 7A and it's associated keys.

Your middle example is correct, except for 7A - you can do that mix, but it's a modulation mix, not a standard harmonic mix. It should be a noticeable effect.

At -3% and lower pitch settings the track will mix with 5A and it's associated keys.

Reply

Dj SI7737
01-22-2010

Got it!

I'm confused about key note and camelot key, but its ok now, so my example gonna be like that:

128bpm - 12A - Db

aprox 132 to aprox 135 bpm (+3% to 6%) - D = 7A/6A/5A/7B
aprox 125 to aprox 132 bpm - Db = 11A/1A/12B/12A
aprox 124 to aprox 120 bpm (-3% to - 6%) - C = 5A/6A/4A/5B

right?

Ty for your attention

cheers.

Reply

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