Community.MixedInKey.com -- Do you guys claim intellectual ownership over the camelot notation?

DJ Suicide Dive
07-29-2009

Some people are claiming that other software cannot implement the key's according to MIK because that would be a violation of the intellectual property of you guys. If that is true, did you file a patent on this? Don't you think its a bit short sighted? I mean you claim to have the best algorithm, you're application is based on various free standards (like the concept of a key to begin with ..). Is this a patent? If so it sounds a lot like a software patent, which is luckily a bogus concept in Europe.

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-29-2009

guess i found my answer to the main question:
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/CommercialLicensing.aspx

so yes you guys do claim ownership over the concept of the camelot wheel.

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-29-2009

actually i think someone like the eff.org should look into getting this patent thrown out since its essentially a simplistic extension of the circle of fifths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

this is awesome .. i handed a bunch of patent trolls money for an app that does nothing for me (since it cannot handle AAC files properly) and due to their patent they are scaring off other developers who can handle AAC files from supporting the concept of the circle of fifths.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
07-29-2009

Hi DJ Suicide Dive,

If you are unsatisfied with our software, then please - request a refund. We will be adding the AAC support you are requesting in the next version, which will be out later this year.

Best,
Chad P

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-29-2009

Yes, I am unsatisfied with your software. But I am even more ticked off by this patent trolling. You simply took long existing concepts and mapped them the characters in the ascii character set that most easily allow you denote the order already defined in the circle of fifths .. how that makes for a patentable invention is beyond me. Obviously as long as there isnt a big enough fish to be able to pluck down the cash for a lawyer to get this patent thrown out, you will scare off other software developers. You should be competing on your key detection, UI and services and not on trying to lock the competition out of fundamentals that other people invented before you were born (or even your great grand parents).

I have been willing to wait for the next update until I found out that you filed for a patent. But if you are indeed willing to give me a refund after the several months I have owned, but not been able to effectively use MIK, then thats nice, but doesnt change the fact that you guys are patent trolls and I will speak out against this at every opportunity.

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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
07-29-2009

Hello,

You are welcome to speak out against patent trolling at any opportunity, we welcome free speech. I also agree with you that filing a patent should not stifle innovation. In our case, the Camelot wheel is not a patented concept, but a trademarked/copyrighted one.

My patent filing is about Mixed In Key's latest key detection. The length of my document is over 40 pages, and that concept is unique and patentable.

I will be sure to refund your order to make you happier.

All the best,
-Yakov

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-30-2009

Thx for the refund. I will need to review my information on copyright, but I have a hard time seeing how copyright law would apply here, since you can hardly copyright a digit/letter sequence this simple: \d{1-2}(A|B).

Or are you just claiming copyright on the image of the camelot wheel? In that case any software could feel free to represent key's in the "camelot wheel" notation, they can just not reproduce the image of the camelot wheel, however they could draw a circle of fifths with the "camelot notation".

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
07-30-2009

Hello,

If you wish to discuss the licensing policies of the Camelot System, please email yakov@mixedinkey.com.

Thanks,
Chad P

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-31-2009

OK, I send a mail yesterday .. will see where this goes.

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Rocdollar
07-31-2009

Yakov has already said the intellectual property surrounds the key detection which is perfectly to be expected because key detection is not an absolute science. They are right to protect their developments with copyright.

I just don't see how they are trolling at all. In fact I guess many developers have been inspired to work on their own algorythms by these guys.

Ultimately they can't prevent anyone from using the circle of fifths nor can they stop them giving each segement of the circle an ordinal reference.

If anyone wants to licence their detection I guess they would want to offer fair commercial terms. Otherwise they are going to have to go elsewhere or develop their own.

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-31-2009

Well you did not read the licensing page in that case. It talks about licensing the camelot wheel and notation. I naturally assumed they patented the notation since otherwise there is no way to claim intellectual ownership on a trivial method to map scales to the "camelot notation". But yes on this point I assumed wrong. This only means that they are not patent trolling, but they are misrepresenting (knowingly or not) what they actually own and as a result what they can actually license.

Here is the current version of the page I am referring to (http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/CommercialLicensing.aspx). Note that it does not talk about the key detection algorithms it only talks about the camelot wheel (certainly copyrighted) and the camelot wheel (if at all an attempt could be made to patent this, however it would be questionable if this patent is grantable or would hold up in court, there is certainly no way to claim copyright violations if someone else also uses the camelot notation):
If you're creating a Harmonic Mixing product or service that may be used by other people, you have to license Camelot notation and the Camelot wheel from Mixed In Key LLC. All products, including freeware are required to obtain a license.

There are six types of licenses:
1. Inclusion in DJ mixing software
2. Inclusion in DJ hardware
3. Display of key results in a digital music store
4. Educational licensing for schools
5. Use in music analysis software and services
6. Radio station use
To obtain your license from Mixed In Key LLC, please e-mail yakov@mixedinkey.com

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Rocdollar
07-31-2009

The wording could be improved certainly but there was no need for you to wade in with such a negative attitude was there? Get a refund over it...lol

'If you're creating a Harmonic Mixing product or service that may be used by other people, you have to license Camelot notation and the Camelot wheel'

This is simply not true. You don't need to get a license to make a harmonic mixing product, but that is obvious isn't it? It is clear to me that what they really mean is if you want to use their technology or the Camelot notation /brand you have to get a license.

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DJ Suicide Dive
07-31-2009

Heh. All I am asking for is to get the wording corrected, because I know for a fact that several developers are scared of legal battles because of the way the wording is and are therefore not implementing camelot notation style features. The current document spreads FUD in the market.

So please fix the wording and make it clear what you can actually license and what the nature of the intellectual property rights are (patent, copyright etc.). Then I will be a happy camper and tell the world that you not only refunded me (which is very nice of you), but also admitted to this imho serious error and more importantly fixed it.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
07-31-2009

Good catch on the wording guys, I can see how that is confusing. I'll be sure to let Yakov know.

Best,
Chad P

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DJ Suicide Dive
08-05-2009

No reply or change yet.

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Chad P (Mixed In Key)
08-05-2009

We do appreciate you holding us accountable for the wording of our website, but this forum isn't necessarily the best place to be doing it. I have told Yakov about your concerns, and I am sure that he will address them as soon as his schedule allows. If you know developers who are interested in using the Camelot System in their software or have any other concerns, I strongly urge you to email Yakov directly at yakov@mixedinkey.com (not the contact@ or info@ mixedinkey addresses).

Thank you,
Chad P

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DJ Suicide Dive
08-21-2009

Seems like Yakov prefers to not see an issue. Anyways, I will evaluate my options in how to increase the pressure to get this fixed.

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DJ Suicide Dive
03-09-2010

The language has gotten simpler, but still not specification on the exact intellectual property rights being claimed and the notation is still included:
http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/CommercialLicensing.aspx

Still disappointed and yes I know your patents are pending, but again there is no excuse for including the notation which is clearly just a minor variation of the circle of fifths.

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