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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Overview Harmonic mixing is based on the idea of mixing harmonically-compatible songs. The standard approach is to detect root notes at the song’s original tempo and find other compatible songs that will fit. However, it is important to understand that changing the tempo of the song will change the key as well. Even the smallest tempo change will alter the key, but a 6% difference will change the key to a whole new one. 6% Rule 6% is thus the magic number: it will move your song to the adjacent key on the piano, as illustrated below: If your original song was recorded in F Minor, increasing the tempo by 6% will move the song one key to the right to give you G-Flat Minor. This is equivalent to adding 7 to your current Camelot number. Since F Minor has an equivalent keycode of 4A, adding 7 will give you the result of 11A. The piano roll above shows you that 11A is indeed equivalent to Gbm. Decreasing the tempo by 6% has the reverse effect: It moves your song one key to the left, or the equivalent to subtracting 7 from your current Camelot number. This is illustrated below: 3% Rule There is a basic rule for smaller increments: If you change the tempo by less than 3%, keep your original key. If you change the tempo by 3% or more, use the 6% key. It works in this way because 3% is the middle point. Anything below 3% will be closer to your original key (F Minor) and anything above 3% will be closer to your 6% key (Gb minor or E minor, depending whether you increase or decrease the tempo). Examples Two songs in F Minor that have roughly the same BPMs: 130 and 131. We can harmonically mix them together because the tempo difference is less than 3%. Next up are two songs in A Minor with different tempos. First song is 128 BPM and the second is 136 BPM. To beatmatch the slower song with the faster song, we’ll have to increase its tempo by exactly 6.25%. This will move the slower song one key to the right, making it B-flat Minor rather than A Minor. The new keys will no longer result in a harmonic mix because A Minor (8A) and B-Flat Minor (3A) are not compatible Camelot numbers. Using “Master Tempo” If your DJ equipment or software supports “Master Tempo,” use it! Master Tempo is a pitch-correction technique that makes it easy to use harmonic mixing at any tempo. If you increase the tempo of an A Minor song by 6.25%, your “Master Tempo” button will keep the song in A Minor. Conclusion In summary, if your tempo change is less than 3%, use the original key. If your tempo is greater than 3%, use the 6% key. The new +6% key can be figured out by adding 7 to your current Camelot code. The new -6% key can be figured out by subtracting 7 from your current Camelot code. Understanding the relation between changing tempos and changing keys can help move your harmonic mixing to the next level.
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DSP420
hello, and talking about tempo, if i dont have a mixer here with me??? how many bpm, changes a key???
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djmexx
Look in my Topic, you will find information about changing the BPM and how the key change ;-) The relation between Pitch and Key
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DJmod
At 75 BPM 6% = to 4.5 BPM At 100 BPM 6% = to 6 BPM AT 125 BPM 6% = to 7.5 BPM At 150 BPM 6% = to 9 BPM
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Bump, it's been a while since this topic has been on the front page.
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GeoffreyChaucer
I disagree with the 3% rule. Although it may sound like the track is "closer key-wise" to the key depending on whether it is 2.5 or 3.5, it just won't sound right if you try to mix a track that is +2.9 "C minor" with a +0 "C minor". In order for it to sound less sour you ought to try to mix in increments of less than 2%. otherwise you need to try the key lock.
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Geoffrey, I agree with you. 2% or less sounds much better than 3%
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Bumping this topic because this question comes up often.
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dmuchmore
Hi all, I'm just newbie here. just 1 question. I'm using CDJ of Pioneer. There is a master tempo botton. If I press that botton, I will change BPM without key change. 3% rule or 6% rule will be ignored. Is it right?
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Correct, "master tempo" changes the BPM without changing your key. "3% rule" and "6% rule" no longer apply because you're always playing at 0%.
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DJ gNetik
been along time since i last posted here and im sure i asked this question once before but here we go..... when recording your tunes to MIKdo you set the pitch to 0% or do you record all at the same BPM? any reasons not to ? pros cons ? cheers
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
It's best to set the pitch to 0%. This will give you flexibility later on, and you won't be forced to re-record your records if you change the overall tempo of your sets. It will make your DJing more versatile. For example, if you record your entire music collection at 140 BPM, you may have to re-record it at 133 BPM two years later. It's always better to keep the original tempo intact.
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stonerbway
what about setting it to master tempo on the cdj?
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Master Tempo keeps your key "glued" to 0% even as you change the tempo. The 3% rule no longer applies -- you can beatmatch songs making them sound detuned.
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loveslap
but "master tempo" sounds audibly bad on every cjd i've ever heard. takes definition out of the sound
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Master Tempo sounds good on Pioneer CDJ-1000s if you use it for less than 3% adjustments. I don't suggest using Master Tempo if you're changing the tempo by +/- 3% because there may be a quality loss.
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Shim
Does this make a difference when using Ableton?
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D´Allegro
is master tempo the same as "key lock" ?tnkx
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Does this make a difference when using Ableton? If you're using Beat Mode, it doesn't make a difference. If you are using Re-pitch, it does.
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
is master tempo the same as "key lock"? Yes, same thing. I am not sure why it was called "Master Tempo" since key lock is a better name for it :)
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Camelot Sound
Every key lock process, both software and hardware, produces measurable distortion. Whether or not it is audible depends on the quality of the processing, the amount of processing, and the type of music. With most processors, changes of less than 3% should be acceptable. With key lock, pitch adjustment up should sound better than pitch adjustment down by the same amount. For example, shifting a 133 BPM track to 136 should sound better than shifting the same track to 130 BPM. It is my understanding, from a layman's perspective, that this difference is due to adding or removing actual samples from the signal. When speeding a track up, a few of the 44,000 samples/second are cut, thus shortening the duration. When slowing a track down, a few samples are synthsized and added back into the track, thus lengthening the duration. Adding synthesized samples sounds worse than cutting actual samples, thus producing the echo commonly heard when slowing a key-locked track down. As a general rule, I have found that percussion has complex waveforms that do not take kindly to key lock processing. Voices are much easier to process without audible side effects, enabling various speed versions of the same a cappella vocal.
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noislogie
hi yakov, can u explain me a little bit more about the key mode when using ableton, how can i set the preferences to work without suffering the 3% or 6%?
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Hi, I believe that if you use "Beats" or "Complex" mode, Ableton Live takes care of this for you. You can configure this setting individually for every clip you play, so it's easy to set up. If you use "Repitch", the 3% and 6% rule applies.
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stewbee
This is close to the principle behind the operation. What a 'Key Lock' or 'Master tempo is actually doing is time-compression/expansion, which is similar, but not identical to pitch correction. For the more technically minded, Wikipedia has a fairly good description of the basic process here.
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Moving the topic back to page 1 of the forum.
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hewy
Hey Yakov Im new here and completely! new to harmonic Mixing and keeping music in key as in i have no idea at all about key etc. Ive read a few things on here so far, but some seem to be a bit advance for someone that is completely new to this, are there any topics or anything that explains the utter basics... Thanks Joel.
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Hi Joel, Welcome to the forum! The best tutorial is here: http://www.MixedInKey.com/HowTo.aspx. It explains how to experience smooth mixing every time you DJ -- it's a good place to start.
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bohdai
i think i will go to the trouble of recording a bit of all my songs at a master bpm to establish their harmonic relationships when beat matched but still spin the tunes in their original state...this should work right? if that is a good method, i think it would be amazing if future versions of MIK had the ability to do this (key at a master bpm) within the app! =P thanks for all the great advice! edit: again, assuming my idea above is a good one, can a MIK engineer/rep give me an idea of what the app "likes" to see to make a good read of a song? i'm looking to avoid giving the app too small of an edit to make an accurate key and bpm read. thanks again!
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mmeds1228
So I understand that if a track's pitch is shifted, it will change the key......once applying the 3% or 6% rule, doesn't that rule then apply to the track being played next as well? What I mean is.....if your current track has Camelot 3 and the pitch shifted 6%, we'd be looking in Camelot 10 for the next track......but that would only be valid if the tempo of the next track was the same or close to the track playing (after the pitch shift).....is this correct? If the new track was Camelot 10 but had a tempo much lower or higher than the resulting tempo of the current track (after the pitch shift), the true key of that track would no longer be 10 once the pitch was shifted to match the current track.....so the rule would then push that track out of the running.....that is what I'm thinking anyway....maybe I'm overthinking this...... If that makes sense to anyone and they can shed some light on it, that would help me. Thanks!
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
What I mean is.....if your current track has Camelot 3 and the pitch shifted 6%, we'd be looking in Camelot 10 for the next track......but that would only be valid if the tempo of the next track was the same or close to the track playing (after the pitch shift).....is this correct? You are correct, the tempo of the next track has to be the same or close to the tracking playing now. For example, track 1 can be 8A (+1% to make it 128 BPM) and track 2 can be 8A (0%, it's already 128 BPM) and they will sound great together.
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little_fox
Bohdai said: "i think it would be amazing if future versions of MIK had the ability to do this (key at a master bpm) within the app!" Great idea bohdai! I was just trying to wrap my brain around how to organize my music so I can mix harmonically with different BPMs but without using the master tempo effect. I avoid the master tempo effect. Even on my CDJ-1000s it very noticeably degrades the sound quality (especially when pushing a track +/- 2%) and I have been trying to find away around using it. Any suggestions? I think it would be killer if MIK had a built in BPM analyzer. Then the software could tell you what the relationship of two tracks were going to be when you played them at the same BPM. This would make master tempo unnecessary. What do you say Yakov? Can it happen:)?
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gemineye7
Hi folks! new to hear, im just about to start key'n my record colection with rapid evoliotion, does anyone think it would help if i got the key detection of my records while at the same bpm?? would this do away with master tempo ect? would this make things easer? some feed back pleeeeeeeeeese!!!!!
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naldo
So if I don't go higher than 3% or 6% I shouldn't worry about the keys changing, right? and another question: When you guys talk about 3% or 6% you talking about 3.00% or 6.00% not 0.3% or 0.6%, right?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Correct, if you are doing a <3% tempo change, no need to worry about key changes. We are referring to 3%, not .3%.
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naldo
Thanks Chad.
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zeuxxx
I can´t understando one question: Example: I have one Track X at 125 bpms-2A and another Track Y at 132 bpm-2A. OK. If I want mix both I have to up pitch up to 6% in X, so now Y is 132 bpm and 2A mixed with X 132 bpm and 9A. My question is: Is it not an energy boost mixing example? If it yes, I think the only way that pitch correction afect to mix is when first track X is up 6% pitch and Y pitch < 3%, but it works good when X < 3% and Y > 6% because energy boost mixing Is it right? Sorry for my english :S
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Chad (MIK Mod)
My question is: Is it not an energy boost mixing example?

If you went from track Y to track X it would be. You would have the opposite effect by going from X to Y.

If it yes, I think the only way that pitch correction afect to mix is when first track X is up 6% pitch and Y pitch < 3%, but it works good when X < 3% and Y > 6% because energy boost mixing Is it right?

Yes, but I think you got it backwards on the last part. X > 3%and Y <3% should give you an energy boost.
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alan h
hello guys, jus supposin i have a track playin out (track a) and its 132 and the track im bringin in (track b) is 128. now the 3% rules come into play is that right??? so can i jus bring the track a down to 131 and then it would be ok??? im also tryin to get my head round the 6% percent rule. i understand you hav to add seven on the camelot. so if the track playin out is 2a and im bringin a track in at 9a is that ok???? like ive had to change the track im bringin in because the previous track was more than 3% so ive had to change the track to suit the track thats playin out. so ive added 7 and now i have a track thats 9a. so now i can mix the two together. thanks for takin the time to read this
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The Digitalist
I don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you. Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious? Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm. Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything. This would enable proper on the fly harmonic mixing. It's a no brainer for me....
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psy
or what you could just do is gradually work your way up through to the faster tunes by jumping only 1 or 2 bpm at a time then it would not be a problem or if you really must make a big jump in bpm do it between 2 songs which start and end on percussion and it wont matter what bpm they are at as long as you match the beats. yeah not mixing harmonically but it gets you from a to b in an emergency and while not being as showy as a full harmonic mix it serves its purpose. a bit plain if you are mixing like that all night but its just to get you to your new groove then you can mix harmonically all night till your hearts content. thats quite a no brainer when u think about it also :)
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Liam.s
i agree with that, is this something that could be added to a future release? having the key at a standard BPM is so much more useful than the key at the actual BMP!!
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Liam.s
"don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you. Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious? Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm. Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything". i agree with that, is this something that could be added to a future release? having the key at a standard BPM is so much more useful than the key at the actual BMP!!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Liam, We've had lots of users request this feature, and I have a great idea on how to implement it. Yakov has just returned from a business trip, so I will soon be discussing it with him to see if we can't get this feature quickly added. Cheers, Chad
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Liam.s
ah thats great news to hear!! look forward to seein it in practice :)
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KrissO
Thanks a lot for this guide! :) Simple question, just out of curiosity. If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B? To try answering my own question, I guess you can't make that happen unless you pitch your track happy hardcore? Or isn't it possible at all? Or to put it in another way. Say inbetween the pitch range 1% - 6% of a track that is 130BPM 1A. The key of the track must surely go through other keys than 1A and 9A?
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Yakov (Mixed In Key)
Hi, If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B? Unfortunately this is not possible. 2B is a Major key, and 1A is a Minor key. Adjusting the tempo won't change a Minor track into a Major track. My advice is to use Master Tempo at all times -- it's the most reliable way to avoid key clashes when you mix, and you don't have to worry about tempo changes either.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If you have a track at 130 BPM 1A. What pitch in/de-creasement would it require to move to 2B? This just wouldn't be practical. By my calculations it would take a 42% increase in speed, which would make your track about 190 BPM. Just because the numbers 1A and 2B are close together on the camelot wheel doesn't make them easily transferable. We don't recommend moving diagonally on the Camelot Wheel anyways. You should probably mix into 2A first, then go to 2B. Say inbetween the pitch range 1% - 6% of a track that is 130BPM 1A. The key of the track must surely go through other keys than 1A and 9A? No, it doesn't even go to 9A. Between a 1% - 6% increase in tempo you are moving from 1A to 10A. Look at the keys that the numbers represent. 1A is A-flat minor. The 6% increase in tempo raises the pitch by a half step, B-minor, which is 10A.
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KrissO
Oops, I realize I wrote other things than I meant, some mistakes. I did actually mean within the minor ofcourse. As you both pointed out, changing from minor to major obviously won't be possible. So how about 1A to 2A? And also my math failed I see, I have no idea where I got 10A from (rough Monday I guess). According to the +6% / +7 rule, 1A (A-flat minor) will give me 8A (A-minor) (and not 10A as you said, or did I miss something?) Either way, you did answer my queston. But, the 3% rule says; if at 3% exactly, use the 6% key. But in theory, wouldn't 3% be 50/50 blend of A-flat minor and A-minor (1A / 8A) ? Or is there no such thing? If a "blend" of two keys is possible... then it should open more choices on the camelot? :)
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Chad (MIK Mod)
So how about 1A to 2A? My answer still applies. You are moving up 7 half steps, this would take a massive increase in tempo to achieve this much of an increase in pitch. And also my math failed I see, I have no idea where I got 10A from (rough Monday I guess). According to the +6% / +7 rule, 1A (A-flat minor) will give me 8A (A-minor) (and not 10A as you said, or did I miss something?) No, you didn't miss anything. Looks like we both got bit by the Monday bug. 8A is what we both meant. But in theory, wouldn't 3% be 50/50 blend of A-flat minor and A-minor (1A / 8A) ? Or is there no such thing? If a "blend" of two keys is possible... then it should open more choices on the camelot? :) The reason that 3% is the magic number is because you have now increased the pitch noticeably. I suppose there is the possibility of being exactly half-way between A-flat minor and A-minor, but the chances of being this close to right in the middle that keys from both tracks working are so small that I wouldn't bother. Unless it would create the most perfect mix that would end with everybody on the dancefloor writhing in ecstasty, it's probably not worth pursuing. But hey, don't let me stop you. Try it out and get back to us : ) Cheers, Chad
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KrissO
Okey, I understand. Thanks :D
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3DU
Hi, I mix with the old Pioneer 100s CDJs. It comes with the MASTER TEMPO effect, but when I use it, sometimes it feels like there´re two kicks in the same song, one playing ms. ahead of the other... I know this is because the beatstreching of the effect is not that good... Will this improve or even get corrected if I buy better CDJs or is it pretty much the same on every CDJ? Cheers,
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BenH
3DU, I have CDJ 1000 MK3's and the master tempo on these units in my opinion is better than my previously owned 800's so I expect the better CDJ's you get the better all of the features will be. The 100's are entry level players probably with less advanced electronics for calculating the algorithms to enforce locking the key of the track. I also have Scratch Live and find the key lock feature as good as my 1000's so this might be an option for you rather than upgrading to 1000’s. Regards Ben
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3DU
Hey thanx Ben! ;)
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mattyg
"don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you. Am i missing something, or is this not completely obvious? Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm. Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything". well said, this would really make the software a hell of alot easier to use! also i dont think it would mean u had to stay at the same bpm throughout ur whole set if this were the case. from what i can gather if the system was set up like this - i.e. songs all calculated at same bpm, then the relationship between them would be the same for ANY bpm they were played at, for example song A calculated at 128bpm as being 1A and song B 2A at same bpm, when both played at 120bpm song A would change to 8A and song B to 9A (not sure these figures r correct, just using them as an example) and they would still be compatible with each other. the actual keys wouldnt be important, they would just be there to show which songs would fit together... am i correct in thinking this?
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faaro
nice software. but not good for house
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Mattyg, don't see why mixed in key can't make everyone's life easier by automatically calculating a generic tempo and therefore key for you. We plan on adding this functionality around version 3.5. We are very excited about this feature, and think it will be a huge step for Mixed In Key. nice software. but not good for house Mixed In Key is designed to improve the mixing of all styles of music. We have lots of house DJs who use our software, including the original developer, Yakov. Why don't you think it's good for house?
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BenH
I mix house and I can firmly say Mixed in Key has improved my ability to mix tracks seamlessly, I’m not musically trained and as a DJ I can (to an expect) know what tracks will sound right together, but with the high availability and cheapness of digital downloads now the qty of music I purchase has increased massively and I may not know the tracks as well as I did when I purchased a handful of records every couple of weeks. MIK just helps to remove the element of error with tracks clashing while I’m playing out.
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AntiTelo
I'm workin on one mashup right now. One track has 126 bpm and 1B key. Other track has 132 bpm and 4B key. How to do them key-compatible ? If I increase tempo (without key-lock) of my 126 bpm track, what value of pitch i must use to do this track sounds in 4B key ?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
First, you need to see what percentage change a 126-132 increase is. To do this, divide the number of bpm increase by the original tempo. You are increasing your track by 6 bpm, so 6/126=.0476, or 4.8% increase in tempo. This will raise your key by +7 on the Camelot wheel, so it will now be 8B, or C major. Now I just look to see the least amount of steps I need to take to get it from C major to A-flat major. It is only -4 semi-tones away, so I would actually lower the pitch by 4 instead of raising it. I hope this answered your question, please let us know if you need further assistance. Cheers, Chad
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AntiTelo
Thanks for your reply Chad ! But I did't get the second part of your text. If I will synchronize both of my tracks their speed will be 132 bpm. Keys are: 4B and 8B. And You wrote that I must lower pitch of my "8B-track" by 4 for getting 4 semitones backwards on Camelot wheel. (8B -> 4B). 4 pitch points of what ? Percent ?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If I will synchronize both of my tracks their speed will be 132 bpm. Keys are: 4B and 8B. And You wrote that I must lower pitch of my "8B-track" by 4 for getting 4 semitones backwards on Camelot wheel. (8B -> 4B). 4 pitch points of what ? Percent ? Are you familiar with a piano? If you look at a piano, and find C (8B) and A-flat (4B) and then count out the number of white and black keys between them, you get 4. It's actually just a coincidence that this coincides with the number of steps on the Camelot wheel. Each key on the piano (white and black) represents what's called a semitone or half-step in pitch. Most pitch shifting plug ins operate using semitones. If you are using something based on pitch relative to tempo change, then I think it would be 20-24%. Hope this helps! Chad
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AntiTelo
To my shame, I am not familiar with piano. I have to learn that. Anyway I figured out that You want to tell me. I'll try that out ! Thanks :)
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A is 4 PiMp
Just curious faaro but why wouldnt it be good for house music? Ive used MIK for all the genres that I mix (house, psy/trance, breaks, drum and bass). And to tell you the truth I havent heard a key clash in any of my mixes since I got it on my computer. If its not working for you, you must be doing something wrong
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Rips
Great tutorial, thanks Yakov. Personally I would tend to recommend avoiding the master tempo on Pioneer CD-J's though. Even at 0% you can usually hear a difference as soon as this is turned on. For instance you may notice the bass becomes slightly muffled. This may vary depending on the type of music but it has always been my experience with House, Breaks, Techno and Trance. People should also remember when mixing there are ways to do large key & pitch jumps without using harmonic mixing, experiment with fast cuts, rapid EQ adjustments and mixing into or out of breakdowns. Otherwise if two tracks are not working together or require large pitch adjustments perhaps those two tracks do not belong together and it is best to find another track that actually sounds right. At the end of the day regardless of the rules if it sounds good it sounds good. ;)
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walidnasser
theres something that i hope someone would be able to clarify for me once and for all, when someone refers to pitch what does that mean exactly? how does pitch effect a tracks musical key? also how do you change a tracks pitch for the musical keys to match (i dont mean shifting the tempo by 6% and jumping 7 semitones)? is this done through the pitch effect on the mixer or through the pitch control on traktor scratch? again if it is done by either of those methods then is there some sort of basis for calculating how much you should alter your pitch to get to the desired musical key? help is much appreciated!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
when someone refers to pitch what does that mean exactly? Pitch is the perceived fundamental frequency of a sound. The fundamental frequency is the main note that you hear. how does pitch effect a tracks musical key? When people are referring to adjusting the pitch of a track, they are talking about the pitch of every note in the song. A musical key is made up of a certain number of set pitches. Increasing the overall pitch of a track will increase the key. also how do you change a tracks pitch for the musical keys to match (i dont mean shifting the tempo by 6% and jumping 7 semitones)? is this done through the pitch effect on the mixer or through the pitch control on traktor scratch? It sounds like you want to adjust the pitch without effecting the tempo. I know that Traktor can adjust tempo without effecting key, but I'm not sure if the opposite is possible. The effect you need is what's called a pitch shifter, and it adjusts the overall pitch of whatever you run through it. I know that Protools has a plug in for this, and there are mixers out there with this feature as well, although I don't know how well they work. You are probably better off changing the pitch of a track ahead of time if you know what you need it to be. is there some sort of basis for calculating how much you should alter your pitch to get to the desired musical key? Yes, there is. Most pitch shifters operate on semitones, so for every semitone that you raise the pitch, you go up +7 on the camelot wheel. So to get 8B, C Major to D Major, this is +14 on the camelot wheel, which is 2 semitones. Just remember that you need to add +7 for every semitone, you can't just say that 10B is +2 from 8B, it's got to be a factor of 7. Just keep adding 7 until you get to the key you want. The number of times you add 7 is the number of semitones you need to raise the pitch.
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walidnasser
thanks for the explanation chad, much appreciated. regarding pitch shifts however, i was actually referring to the pitch effect on my DJM-600 and Pitch alteration embedded in Traktor Scratch (using the +/- Keys on your keyboard or the pitch buttons next to the phase meter) Does anyone have any idea how to accurately use either of those? the pitch effect seems tricky cos i cant seem to tell what time / how much effect 'strength' is needed to alter your track to the next semitone. Thanks!
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DJ Baruch
Good Job Guys
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Sascha Lupeski
HEY GUYS !!! When does this thing going to be added to mixed in key ? Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 130bpm. Then, you could arrange your tracklist by the secondary key, and then provided your mix stays the same tempo throughout (say 130 bpm) you wouldn't need to "calculate" anything". well said, this would really make the software a hell of alot easier to use! I play House music and i play arround 128bpm would be great if you answere me!!!???
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Sascha, I wish I could give you a date, but we don't have one set in stone yet. Currently we are working on improving our key detection algorithm, updating it to more effectively report hip-hop, psy-trance, and drum & bass styles of music. We have also been working on a Platinum Notes update, since we have gotten some updates to some of the software that we license for it. I am also currently training a room full of monkey's to code, so updates should be coming a lot faster and more frequently in the future. ; ) Cheers, Chad
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DSP
so how many bpm is one key? cause i dont have cd players now at home so i cant see the 6% and all those details so i have to make my munbers first.... thanks
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Finding what a 6% change is takes a little math, so warm up your calculator : ) First you need to know the original BPM, and the BPM that you want to change it to. Let us say that we have a track that is at 128 BPM, and we want it to be playing at 135 BPM. This is a 7 BPM increase, so we divide this number by the original BPM: 7/128=.05468.......which is about 5.5%, and +7 on the camelot wheel. Cheers, Chad
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MSK
Hi...im new here....just wondering that ive ended up with quite a few tracks which have "multiple keys" not sure what the correct way of saying it would be...but something like 5A/6B or 7B/8A.... what does that really mean? that they belong to both of them? or i gotta pitch up or down to use either one of them
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Multiple keys refer to probabilities. For example the track could have a 51% chance of being 5A and a 49% chance for 6B. When it is so close we give you both keys so you have more mixing options. These tracks can come in very handy for changing keys without having to use the traditional methods of going around the Camelot wheel or doing energy boosts. Best, Chad
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longdog
Chad / Yakov, I've read through this forum which is useful as it's another element of harmonic mixing I wasn't aware of (and probably one I wish didn't exist!). Calculating these 6% changes sitting down at home is all well but the idea of doing this on the spot whilst playing out at a party or club makes my head hurt a bit. In that situation as well as finding the next tune to play, in a compatible key, I then have to calculate the % shift against number of bpms, and then add or subtract by 7 or more on the camelot scale. It sounds like a bit of a nightmare! Do you honestly do this in your head when you're playing out? Not to be flippant but if this is the case do you have a very good head for numbers or a calculator in your pocket?! What I am asking essentially is how do you find it applying this method in a live DJ'ing situation, as the pressure which occurs sometimes from finding the next suitable tune wouldn't be helped, I imagine, whilst having to conduct mental arithmetic. Is there any quick, clever maths shortcut you apply to this rule? I've lost my edge on maths since school though so maybe this is only good for those with a penchant for numbers, and maybe I need to get some practice! Grateful if you could let me know though.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
We feel your pain, trust me :) After doing enough of these calculations, you can get a sense of a percentage change, especially if you play in a certain range. For example, any track you have that is at 128 changed to 135 is going to be the same percentage change for all the tracks. In the future, we are going to add in a key shift calculator that will allow you to simply change the bpm of a track in MIK and it will give you the new key. In my opinion it's going to be the best thing to happen to MIK since the new algorithm we launched with 3.0, so stay tuned! -Chad
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longdog
Chad, Thanks for getting back to me on this question, and apologies for the delay in acknowledging your reply! L
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duroboy
So does this mean, say instead of using the 6% rule you could stick to the 3% rule if the track that is playing for eg... original key/tempo is 130 - 11A and the track that your going to mix into is 136 -11A ... it is therefore ok to just split the difference and come up to 133 and down 133 and stay in the same key?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
I just answered this question for someone the other day. Initially it sounds like it would work, but if you think about it for a couple of minutes you will see why it won't. Both tracks are in the same key, but at different speeds. One track needs to be sped up (raised in pitch) and the other track needs to be slowed down (lowered in pitch). Both of these actions is making the track farther from its original key, and in opposite directions, resulting in a clashing mix. It would work if they were closer in tempo, but I think that 6 bpm is just too much of a gap. You could try using a key lock function if your setup has one, or repitch one of the tracks using recording software. Traktor, Live, and Pro Tools all have the capabilities that you would need to do this.
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duroboy
Ooops sorry Chad to make you write the same response again.... lol .... i undersatnd now Thanx for the info :-)
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hey, no problem :-)
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johnalivein
hey yakov, chad p i just wanted to knw about beat matching on a cdj 1000 if i changed my tempo i change with it the pitch so plz tell me how can i beat match on a cdj 1000!!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Check out this video from our friend Ellaskins from djtutor.com. He explains the master tempo feature on the CDJ 800, but it should be basically the same thing on the 1000. Cheers, Chad
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tekkio
What if I wanted to mix 2 tracks together which share the same key, but not the tempo? Would it be best just to adjust the tempo towards the mean of the two tempos?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
It depends on the difference in tempo. If the total percentage change is <3%, then you should be ok. Any more than that might make them clash. Look up just a couple of posts and I was talking about this same thing. Best, Chad
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174whore
hi im new to this and just need reassurance im doing this right here is what im doing i mix drum and bass music and i use ableton live to make every song 174 bpm then i bounce them to mp3 so every song i play is perfectly beat matched. then i use mik the find the key of my 174bpm tracks and then based on my results i plan my mix according to the camelot wheel. my question is as long as my tracks are 174 does any of the above stuff in this thread apply to me or can i just do what i have described in my post with perfect results every time????? thank you
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If you are keying all of your tracks at 174 BPM, then you don't need to worry about how tempo effects key, unless you need to play at another tempo of course ;)
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DJ Kaos
Hi all, Great read. Definately invest.... Any Comments from breakbeat Djs ?
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Lirou
Just a tip for Traktor users (other softs may have it as well): You can change the key of a song independently of its tempo. Just open the "Key" Panel. 1% change in the "key panel" is one semitone. OR 1% change in the "key" panel = 6% change in the pitch (without master tempo 'on') * obviously, it only works when master tempo is 'on'.
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MissDVS
Hi! Ive been using this for a few months and thought it was working really good but after fully reading this realize that I may be using it wrong!?? I had a different way of trying to figure out percentage like this: 140bpm/135bpm = 1.037 essentially 3.7% so I move my key 7 down to 135 bmp. What happens say, if I pitch a track from 125 to 135 = 7.4% I still only move it up 7 on the wheel? seems like a pretty far jump in octaves to be accurate isnt it? or is it just the greater the percentage from 6% the less likely the track will be keyed exactly?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
What happens say, if I pitch a track from 125 to 135 = 7.4% I still only move it up 7 on the wheel? seems like a pretty far jump in octaves to be accurate isnt it? It seems extreme, but you shouldn't have to go +14 until over a 9% change. or is it just the greater the percentage from 6% the less likely the track will be keyed exactly? Nope, it should be linear. Cheers, Chad
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Lil' Mike
Friday i played probably my first set 100% in key...started my set at 1 and finished on 11... Beautiful... Had a very good set and landed my first residency ever... Sweet Lil' Mike www.djlilmike.co.za (Just launched)
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Chad (MIK Mod)
That's awesome!
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Richie
I stick with the 3% rule or around +-4BPM. I play house and trance using this rule (ranging 130-140BPM). On the CDJ, +-3% is about 4BPM. Most tracks in certain genres only require a 2-4 BPM change to match tempos together a lot of the time, so no more adjustment than +-3% on the pitch slider. In Ableton it's totally different. So you have to use your ears. If it's sour, I use the complex warp mode to lock the pitch in. The CDJ's Master Tempo sounds horrible and processed if you move past 2% in my opinion, negating the need to even use the feature in the first place for a small tempo change. It depends entirely on what you're running. Ableton and CDJ's differ in the way they process a track to speed it up or down. Which one is better at it is a matter of opinion. But the only device that really gives a true, unprocessed tempo shift is the old turntable. no electronic processors involved.
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leio
If im using ableton live, should i be analysing the songs i have warped in beats or complex mode or should i be analysing songs in their original tempo straight from beatport? How do i go about getting the warped songs back into the application (mixed in key) to get them analysed after warping? Is there a way to have mixed in key interface with ableton live?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If im using ableton live, should i be analysing the songs i have warped in beats or complex mode or should i be analysing songs in their original tempo straight from beatport? Warping in Ableton Live doesn't effect the pitch of a song, so you can analyze the original file before warping and use those results. How do i go about getting the warped songs back into the application (mixed in key) to get them analysed after warping? This shouldn't be necessary, but if you really want to do it, then you can. Drag the warped song onto an audio track, select it, and choose Export Audio from the file menu. Is there a way to have mixed in key interface with ableton live? No. Mixed In Key is made to work as a stand alone program. Cheers, Chad
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RockyD
@BenH, I have the CDJ800s and haven't thought the Master Tempo was that bad, I must go try the 1000s MK3s and see if I can notice an improvement. Have you tried Traktor key lock at all? I've been reading up on whether to go for Serato or Traktor and a day after placing an order for Traktor I stumble on a thread suggesting that key lock is far from Pioneer CDJ quality. :( You've said it's good in Scratch Live (that is Serato right?) what sort of CPU/RAM etc do you have? What's your latency set to please? Do you use vinyl or cd control media please?
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jimmy2mac
hi there, just getting into all this harmonic mixing and I'm not quite sure about it yet, so just looking to understand a bit more. i put my songs through mixed in key and got back all the tracks keys and tempos.. so i have 2 tracks i want to mix, there both 10a but the bpm on one of them is 128 and the other is 126. so how to you get they tracks to mix if one track is running faster than the other one!! could someone please let me know? so i can start to use this properly. also i have cdj 400s with master tempo and I've seen people say it affects the music but you can not tell the difference when it is on or off.. many thanks James..
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi James, Mixing a 126 BPM with a 128 BPM will work fine. The way to check this is a little mathematical, but once you check a couple of tracks, you'll get a good sense of what will work and what won't. So, let's say you want to mix the 126 10A track to 128 10A. 1. Subtract the old tempo from the new tempo: 128-126=2 2. Divide that number by the original tempo: 2/126=.0158.....1.5% 3. If the percentage is less than 3%, which in this case it is, then the tracks will mix fine. If it is greater than 3%, then add 7 to the Camelot Code to see what track you are now in. Cheers, Chad
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Leon C
Hello. I got a quick question. How much pitch is needed to get the song (let's say its in A1) to get to the same key but an octave higher? Thx
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Chad (MIK Mod)
How much pitch is needed to get the song (let's say its in A1) to get to the same key but an octave higher? A lot! You would have to go around the Camelot Wheel 12 times by adding +7 until you get back to your original key, adding 6% pitch for each time you add 7. Another way to look at it is 6% pitch is a semi-tone increase, you need 12 semi-tones to go up an octave, so you need 72% pitch increase to get to an octave higher :) Best, Chad
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Weizy
Chad, Wow you reply to everyone's questions on this thread. That is very nice of you! Sorry to have to ask another question of you... So according to what you have said in regards the 'Warp' function in Ableton it sounds like warping does not affect the Key that a individual track is at. So for example I have the master tempo set to 129.00bpm and I have a bunch of tracks that have original bpms of 125.00. So after warping all of these tracks to 129 you are saying that the Key of those tracks remains the same? I guess I just assumed that even using Ableton Live that I would have to use the 3%/6% rule...
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Chad (MIK Mod)
So for example I have the master tempo set to 129.00bpm and I have a bunch of tracks that have original bpms of 125.00. So after warping all of these tracks to 129 you are saying that the Key of those tracks remains the same? Yeah, but there are a couple of different warp modes, one of them is re-pitch. This mode will change the pitch of the track when warping, so then you would need to use the 3%/6% rule. One thing to make note of - the default warp mode is usually set to 'beats' and this will make most songs sound goofy. I switch the mode to 'tones' or 'complex' when working with whole songs. You can switch the mode with the drop down box write under the warp button and tempo. Cheers, Chad PS: Thanks for the props!
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wes_mcgee
Agreed with the above, Thanks to chad for explaining this. OK, so one semitone up or down equals 7 steps up or down on the camelot wheel. So if I want to shift 1 step on the wheel(up) can I just go up 1/7 of a semitone? Most pitch shifters(ableton) have a "cents" control. Mine gives 50 cents to the semitone(no idea why). so 1/7 is approximately 7 cents. My ears tell me this works, but it is hard to be sure. Any thoughts? Obviously it also depends on the accuracy of the detected keys....while I am a huge fan, we all know the software isn't perfect(and some producers aren't careful about keeping all parts of a track in key). I think it is pretty good though.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
So if I want to shift 1 step on the wheel(up) can I just go up 1/7 of a semitone? 1/7 of a semitone would barely even be an audible change. The only way I know of to shift a song to another key is by going around the Camelot wheel by adding +7. Let me try to explain why this is. For my example, we'll use 8B, C major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B). This key is all of the white keys on a piano. The adjacent key on the Camelot Wheel is 9B, or G major. G major has one black key added, which is F# (sharp). Here is the whole scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. So, to get an F# into our song in the key of C, we need to raise our F note by a semitone. We can't just change the F note though without changing every note in the song with it, so now every note is a semitone higher. Our C Major scale now looks like this: C#, D#, F, F#, G#, A#, C. To get a song in C major to be in G major, you need to keep adding a semitone until that first note is G, only then will you have all of the notes be properly in G major. Due to the way that the Western music system is setup, a semitone is the smallest increment when you are dealing with keys. Most pitch shifters(ableton) have a "cents" control. Mine gives 50 cents to the semitone(no idea why). so 1/7 is approximately 7 cents. My ears tell me this works, but it is hard to be sure. Any thoughts? Check out the Wikipedia page on cents. This should help to explain a little bit of what is going on. It's basically just a mathematical way of looking at how we hear music and the difference between two notes. They also have some audio samples that I found really interesting to listen to. You can just barely tell the difference once you get up to 10 cents. I hope I've shed a little light for you. It's a complicated subject, so if you want me to clarify anything I've said in this post let me know. Cheers, Chad
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wes_mcgee
ah, I see it is not as easy as I thought. But I already knew it wasn't going to be perfect. I was working with a track shifted 35 cents, and it seemed to work(that article describe 20 semitones as audible to normal people, thats us!). Another user quickly noted I could have gone the other direction and hit an exact semitone. I am getting it now ;).
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Scientific Funk
Sorry if MIK already does this but; I'm just getting back into DJing, and missed the 'Digital' explosion. I've read through this thread and what would seem be helpful within the software is a table for each of your tracks showing what harmonic pitch they'll be at for given % increments on our 'turntable' and also it's BPM. EXAMPLE DJ MIK "Tune" 0% 128bpm route pitch 1A +1% 129bpm pitch 1A +2% 131bpm pitch 1A etc etc +8% 139bpm pitch 2B (for example) Now you'd be able to instantly see which tracks are in tune with the one you are currently playing. Example track one is playing at +4% and its tune pitch is now 2C and the tempo is 134bpm All you need to do now is search (with a key search function per BPM) through your tracks to find which ones are acceptably in key (2c or within an 'hour') at 134bpm. Once you select the track it would tell you that you need to use +2.5% pitch increase to achieve both the required bpm and harmonic pitch.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
I just wanted to offer a little clarification for the above post... 0% 128bpm route pitch 1A +1% 129bpm pitch 1A +2% 131bpm pitch 1A etc etc Yes.... +8% 139bpm pitch 2B (for example) No. A 1A track that has been increased by 8% would be in the key of 8A, not 2B. Increasing the tempo of a track will never switch a song from minor to major. The increase past 6% pushes the key +7, to 8A. To get a track to be in the key of the adjacent Camelot number, you need to increase the pitch of the song by 42%. Now that I've clarified that, I understand what you are suggesting. We have a great idea on how to implement this, and it should appear in a future version. Cheers, Chad
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Scientific Funk
Hi Chad, I didn't work out the pitches, just used them to suggest that there are changes as you increase the tempo. Sorry for the confusion. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
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Scientific Funk
Is this correct for a track in 8a? 0 - 2% = 8A 3 - 8% = 3A 9 - 12% = 10A
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Yep, you've got it.
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Scientific Funk
Thank you
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djchez
Im a dj in Toronto Canada. never really had an issue mixing in key but no one is perfect. bought this program just to see how it works. No dj plays their sets at 0%. The first track will always be +whatever%. Do you think when in front of a club you have time to stand there and try to calculate how much precent above 0 is equal the what tone the camalot track is in... And then its not done there. You have to do the same for ever single track. It really sounds ridiculous to me. If this is supposed to save you time its not. And in the end it is NOT even guaranteed that the 2 tracks you want to mix together will even mix right even following the Camalot chart. You still have to sit home and try mixing all the possible combinations together. Doesnt any dj do this anyways. Unless i am mistaken this program was a waist of 50 dollers. I just bought this program yesterday so havnt had alot of time with it. Please correct me if i am wrong!! djchez
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi djchez, Like any new technique, mixing harmonically takes practice. Start with the basics, like mixing tracks in the same key and same tempo. Then move on to more advanced techniques dealing with tempo and key changes. Calculating these changes may seem difficult at first, but once you've done it a few times you will start to see what key a given track will be in without too much work. It won't be in the next update, but we are also planning on adding a key calculator to the MIK Collections browser, so that you will be able to see what the key of any track at a given tempo would be. Cheers, Chad
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djchez
ok ..... so if i play a track recorded at 122 bpm but at a much higher speed like any normal dj lets say 128 bpm i am 6 bpm higher which then i have to calculate the percentage differance right? ( i guess i will have to carry a calculator with me behind the booth ) Then once i have that figure and the Key of the track (as per Camalot chart) i have to multiply the key 7 times for every 3% (some poeple even arguing 2% is better) the original track tempo has been changed???? Then again, and again and again.... Please tell me i am missing something or i want a refund!!!!!!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi dj chez, We got your email and will respond shortly. Best regards, Chad
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Dj Snafu
I've had MIK now for quite awhile and thought I was using the Camelot Wheel correctly.. now I'm not sure but I'd like to check to make sure. Left the computer and sold my Xponent. Bought a Denon HS5500 and I'm so happy. To lock the key you have to hit 'Key Adjust'. Unfortunately there is no adjusting the key like you could in Torq but thats ok. I do not know keys or how they work together, this is why the Camelot Wheel is so great for me. So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be: 6A, 7B, 8A Right? 6B & 8B This is wrong? right? 9A would be 2 semitones up? 5A would be 2 semitones down? 2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost? 12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy? 9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong? I would like to put an end to my confusion. Thanks
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Chad (MIK Mod)
So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be: 6A, 7B, 8A Right? Correct. 6B & 8B This is wrong? right? Typically yes. It's not that it won't work, but going from minor to major in that way will usually clash. It can provide an interesting effect sometimes though, so don't rule it out completely. 9A would be 2 semitones up? This is an energy boost too. 5A would be 2 semitones down? Yep, and you would be lowering the energy. 2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost? 12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy? Right. 9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong? Yes, it's 2 semitones up, but would probably sound a little different from a usual energy boost since you're switching from minor to major. I think the most important thing to remember is that rules are made to be broken. It's helpful to know them as a guideline, and to understand why things sound the way they do. It's not good to let them limit your creativity though, don't stop experimenting. Cheers, Chad
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paul_oz
Hey... have been using mik for a short while now so still only new to it.. have recently upgraded to version 4 and find that my main issue at the moment is determining the new key if I increase / decrease the pitch... Don't really know if it's do-able or not.. but thought why not for version 5 include a function where you can adjust tempo via mik, which will then determine the key automatically for you, saving you more time... It's easier said than done I guess and I really should stop being so lazy and just learn more.. but for the new or just plain lazy people (like me) it may not be a bad idea..?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Don't really know if it's do-able or not.. but thought why not for version 5 include a function where you can adjust tempo via mik, which will then determine the key automatically for you, saving you more time... I know exactly what you are talking about, we do have plans for adding a feature like this. Stay tuned ;)
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djluckyb
Chad, About this little exchange. Look for the break line as it is where you both lost me. So if we start with the key 7A, other keys that will mix well with them would be: 6A, 7B, 8A Right? Correct. 6B & 8B This is wrong? right? Typically yes. It's not that it won't work, but going from minor to major in that way will usually clash. It can provide an interesting effect sometimes though, so don't rule it out completely. 9A would be 2 semitones up? This is an energy boost too. 5A would be 2 semitones down? Yep, and you would be lowering the energy. ____________________________________________________ HOW DO YOU GO TO 7A ON THE WHEEL TO 2A AND CALL IT ONE SEMITONE UP IT IS CLEAR ACROSS THE CIRCLE. WHAT AM I MISSING? DITTO FOR 12A AND ALL THAT FOLLOWS. THANKS 2A would be 1 semitone up? Energy boost? 12A would be 1 semiton down? Decrease energy? Right. 9B also 2 semitones up? Wrong? Yes, it's 2 semitones up, but would probably sound a little different from a usual energy boost since you're switching from minor to major. I think the most important thing to remember is that rules are made to be broken. It's helpful to know them as a guideline, and to understand why things sound the way they do. It's not good to let them limit your creativity though, don't stop experimenting. Cheers, Chad
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Chad (MIK Mod)
HOW DO YOU GO TO 7A ON THE WHEEL TO 2A AND CALL IT ONE SEMITONE UP IT IS CLEAR ACROSS THE CIRCLE. WHAT AM I MISSING? DITTO FOR 12A AND ALL THAT FOLLOWS. 7A is D minor, one semitone up is E flat minor, aka 2A. It's all related to scales and the way they are organized. Look at your Camelot Wheel and notice how the actual names of keys relate to Camelot Code. Let's use 8B for an example. 8B to 9B is C major to G major, and there is only one note different between these two scales, that is why they mix harmonically. If you go up a semitone on a piano though from C, you do not get G. You get C#, which is +7 on the Camelot Wheel, aka 3B. It's complicated if you don't play piano, which is why we use the Camelot system. Cheers, Chad
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Architect
That would depend on the BPM of the song... The lower the BPM the less would need to change the BPM to change the key (in numbers...) but the percentage would be the same (6%=1/2 step or a semitone). 6% of 90 is not the same as 6% of 140... And 6% of 100 is not the same as 6% of 150. Changing a song at 100 BPM up a half step would require shifting the tempo up to 106 BPM; however, changing a song at 150 BPM up a half step would require shifting the tempo up to 159 BPM.
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Nazzid
Examples Two songs in F Minor that have roughly the same BPMs: 130 and 131. We can harmonically mix them together because the tempo difference is less than 3%. Next up are two songs in A Minor with different tempos. First song is 128 BPM and the second is 136 BPM. To beatmatch the slower song with the faster song, we’ll have to increase its tempo by exactly 6.25%. This will move the slower song one key to the right, making it B-flat Minor rather than A Minor. The new keys will no longer result in a harmonic mix because A Minor (8A) and B-Flat Minor (3A) are not compatible Camelot numbers. Thats not true, 8A plus 7 equals 3A. That is compatible. You even say it in the advanced/boost energy mixing section. You should reread that. Thanx
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DJ Joe Kane
Hello Yakov.I have been using the 3 bpm technique for 2 years now,ie increasing or decreasing the bpm by 3 .This technique is used by camelot.Can this technique be used for all dance music.
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Doseun
Hi. I just started using this system and I have the master tempo feature. But I was noticing there are several different kinds of each key and I was curious if I wanted to use the 6% rule for even more options, how do I know what is what on a keyboard? Cuz there are flats, sharps, majors, and minors. Maybe a picture for reference would be good to.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Doseun, Thanks for posting, I am happy to help. Yakov posted pictures of a keyboard in the original post. I'm not sure exactly what more you are looking for... Changing the key of a minor song will always still give you a minor song, and the same goes for songs in a major key if that is what you are asking. If that doesn't help, please feel free to ask away and I will do my best to answer. Cheers, Chad P
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dj john
great job....can i use the method of editing the properties of the track or i mean to copy the bpm and key of my next track into a playing track to give me a good mix?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Sorry dj john, I don't quite understand your question. Would you mind offering a little bit of clarification? I will be happy to help as soon as I have more information. Thanks, Chad P
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GolanT
Hi there, Great software, it has improved my mixes, no doubt. I have a question: the "MASTER TEMPO" function in pioneer is actually "KEY ADJUST" in Denon, right? Thanks.
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Jamie
I have just bought this software and after reading this find that it may be pretty much useless to me. most of the time I will be playing track at around 180bpm but these tracks in original from my have been as low as 165bpm. its quite normal for me to start a set on +5% on the decks/cdj's etc etc and most of the time it will get faster by the end of the set. Most of the examples shown in here are for small bpm changes from 130-135 bpm etc etc so is it possible for this software to be of use to me? I mostly use cdj 1000's and Traktor scratch pro if it makes any difference to using the software. any guidance is appreciated. Thanks Jamie
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Jamie, Thanks for posting, I am happy to help. Mixing at the speeds you mentioned is no different. A song at 165 BPM is going to be exactly one semitone (+7 on the Camelot Wheel) higher at 175 BPM. It's actually pretty easy at this speed, because it's all based on 10 BPM increases. A 5 BPM increase is going to be half of a semitone, so could also be considered a semitone increase. Since you are using Traktor you always have the option of using key lock though, making all of this obsolete. Cheers, Chad P
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Jamie
Im having some real issues running traktor at the minute and really have not had the chance to use the functions it has. ive just tried the key lock though and its less than great.. I have tried the mixing in key though and Im pretty impressed with the sound it gives - many thanks for that
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Pilip
Hi:) Is it possible that when I have a song at 126bpm - 5A and I change the tempo by 1% or even 0,8% it changes the key to 8B after analyzing it again in MiK?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Hi Pilip, Pretty much anything is possible. Normally such small tempo changes shouldn't effect the key, but if it is borderline to begin with this isn't totally unexpected. Cheers, Chad P
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CMJ
Has there been any progress on Mattyg's thought about having MIK automatically calculating a generic tempo & key?
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CMJ
Hello... No response?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Has there been any progress on Mattyg's thought about having MIK automatically calculating a generic tempo & key? This is an idea we've had for a long time but we have not yet decided whether or not to include it in our software. Cheers, Chad P
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Dj duxie
Sur if this is the case then wy did i even bother buying this program if master tempo does it for me anyways
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Master tempo doesn't automatically match keys - it just prevents keys from changing due to changes in tempo.
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Paul D
can i confirm that the following information is in fact incorrect. (from you rinitial post) If your original song was recorded in F Minor, increasing the tempo by 6% will move the song one key to the right to give you G-Flat Minor. This is equivalent to adding 7 to your current Camelot number. Since F Minor has an equivalent keycode of 4A, adding 7 will give you the result of 11A. The piano roll above shows you that 11A is indeed equivalent to Gbm. ---- if i add 7 to f minor i get F-sharp minor, u state G Flat minor ?? is the first paragraph incorrect ? i dont veen have a g flat minor on my grid lol
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Chad (MIK Mod)
if i add 7 to f minor i get F-sharp minor, u state G Flat minor ?? is the first paragraph incorrect ? i dont veen have a g flat minor on my grid lol F-sharp and G-flat are the same thing :)
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Echo
The 3%/6% Rule; Tried & Tested! Someone may have done this before but I tried a little experiment using VDJ. With the Keylock off, I recorded a one minute clip from the middle of a tune with the pitch at 0. Starting from the same cue point each time and increasing the pitch by 1% (or as close to 1% as I possibly could get) I recorded 12 more one minute clips. Then decreasing the pitch from 0 by 1% at a time I recorded a further 12 clips. So I ended up with 25 one minute clips at 1% intervals, which I then put through my MIK programme to get the key results. Here's what happened: The track, Son of Raw - Black Man In Space [Sax Mix] was in 4A The one minute clip also came back as 4A; Below are the results in linear order; -12.1% - 2A or 3A - 110.74 -11.1% - 7A or 2A - 111.97 -10% - 2A - 113.45 -9% - 2A - 114.68 -8% - 10A - 115.92 -7% - 10A - 117.15 -6.1% - 12B - 118.37 -5.1% - 9A - 119.6 -4.1% - 9A - 120.82 -3.1% - 9A or 8A - 122.07 -2% - 4A - 123.54 -1% - 4A - 124.76 0% - 4A - 126 +1% - 4A - 127.22 +2% - 4A - 128.46 +3.1% - 4A or 11A - 129.92 +4.1% - 11A - 131.17 +5.1% - 11A - 132.38 +6.1% - 11A - 133.62 +7% - 11A - 134.85 +8% - 11A - 136.09 +9% - 11A - 137.32 +10% - 7A - 138.55 +11.1% - 6A - 140.04 +12.1% - 6A - 141.26 For me the results are pretty good. I would rarely have to (or want to) increase/decrease a tune by any more than plus/minus 5%. And almost everything within that spectrum on this example is spot on. (with the exception of "-3.1% - 9A or 8A" which is pretty close anyway) I know "-6.1% - 12B - 118.37" makes no sense as it dictates a change from minor to major, but I suspect that has more to do with the dreadful distorted sound of a saxaphone being slowed down by over 6% it's natural tempo. Anyway, this experiment has helped me understand the 3% Rule a little better, hopefully it will be helpful to someone else. I plan to do a similar experiment with a track that has two keys to see what happens!
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DJ Pro Ben
So when's that BPM/key calculator coming out? ;)
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bigboyblunden
Can sum1 plzzz help me!!! i am useing pioneer cdj 400's at the moment...in the top right hand corner of the screen is a pitch control percentage gage.if i gage the track i am playing eg 134.99 bmp 8A at 0.00% if i then increase this past 3.00% do i ad 7 on the camelot wheel..?is this the 3% rule...? Thankyou Tom
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Chad (MIK Mod)
if i gage the track i am playing eg 134.99 bmp 8A at 0.00% if i then increase this past 3.00% do i ad 7 on the camelot wheel..?is this the 3% rule...? Yes, that is exactly correct. You can also use the master tempo button to keep the song at it's original key when making pitch adjustments.
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bigboyblunden
Nice 1 thanx very much for the help!!jsut 1 more thing.i have seen sum1 has posted to say that if increasing past 2.00% u will have a more key mached mix...?better 2 use 2.00% rathen then 3.00%....?thanku!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
better 2 use 2.00% rathen then 3.00%....? It all depends on the tracks you are mixing, but most of the time adding 7 to your Camelot key after going past 3% is appropriate.
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bigboyblunden
Thanx again for your help.its really good that you guys reply..and so quickly.just 1 morew qustion for u luvly people...if increasing tempo past 3.00% is adding 7 .... then past 6.00% wud be 14 spaces around the camelot whell?Thnx
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Chad (MIK Mod)
if increasing tempo past 3.00% is adding 7 .... then past 6.00% wud be 14 spaces around the camelot whell? You've got the right idea, but your math is a little off. 6% is where you are exactly at one semitone higher. We use 3% as the halfway point, whereby you are closer to the new higher key than you were to the original. You need to go another 3% beyond 6% to pass the same threshold, so you wouldn't add another 7 to the Camelot wheel until passing a 9% total pitch adjustment.
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bigboyblunden
so bassically....over 3.00% add 7 ...then if a huge increasment past 9.00% add 14 ... thankyou very much!uve been much help!!!!
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dj amm
I usually play psy trance with BPM of around 145. but some songs that i analize through mixed in key give a result of around 72 bpm. will this error affect the key detection as well?
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w1llth3thr1ll
>>>>Mixed in key should give your the actual key of the song (at it's original tempo) and a second key, where the song is, for instance, at 100bpm. MattyG and others said really well the same thing i was thinking! I was considering some more difficult options like repitching and analying each track to 128 just to get its "relative" pitch at a fixed bpm, for comparison purposes while mixing (not that i would stick to a fixed bpm). So is this feature coming anytime soon? or did i miss it somehow? +1 on this feature request!!! and big props to chad and yakov for doing such a good job on keeping up with everyones questions and comments...
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Dj SI7737
Hi all, im newer in mixed in key and harmonic concepts, i´ve djing Trance about 4 years for hobby and now im decide to make this hobby my professional choice, and start play Tech House. I always question me about music´s combination by Tom, and i make this listening tracks and using my opinion. After reading and learning how to use MIK, please correct me if my example is wrong. Let´s suppose im playing a track 128 bpm - MIK give me 12A Camelot key for this track. So i have these options for the next track to make harmonic mix: 133 to 136 bpm (+3%)= 10A/11A/12A/11B/6A 125 to 132 bpm = 11A/1A/12B/7A/12A 124 to 120 bpm (-3%) = 1A/12A/1B/8A/2A It´s right? Its just an example and i know we have to experience some thing out of this rule. cheers and gratz for this nice Community and software.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Let´s suppose im playing a track 128 bpm - MIK give me 12A Camelot key for this track. So i have these options for the next track to make harmonic mix: 133 to 136 bpm (+3%)= 10A/11A/12A/11B/6A 125 to 132 bpm = 11A/1A/12B/7A/12A 124 to 120 bpm (-3%) = 1A/12A/1B/8A/2A It´s right? A 128 BPM track at 3 to 6% is going to be playing at 131.8 to about 135.5 BPM. This should make it compatible with 7A and it's associated keys. Your middle example is correct, except for 7A - you can do that mix, but it's a modulation mix, not a standard harmonic mix. It should be a noticeable effect. At -3% and lower pitch settings the track will mix with 5A and it's associated keys.
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Dj SI7737
Got it! I'm confused about key note and camelot key, but its ok now, so my example gonna be like that: 128bpm - 12A - Db aprox 132 to aprox 135 bpm (+3% to 6%) - D = 7A/6A/5A/7B aprox 125 to aprox 132 bpm - Db = 11A/1A/12B/12A aprox 124 to aprox 120 bpm (-3% to - 6%) - C = 5A/6A/4A/5B right? Ty for your attention cheers.
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Supra
i was warping airplay - be free (mat zo remix) just now and the segment was 134bpm while my global tempo was 132bpm so technically re-pitch warping shouldn't have changed my key according to the 6% rule but it did change. Any ideas on this? Thanks in advance
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HouseSingapore
Guys, my maths is so bad, I have a suggestion for a simple solution: could somebody (with better maths than mine) please create a table which we can print and keep for handy reference while mixing? This table should show, in a simple way, whether any 2 songs could go together, based on key and tempo. For instance, if I have a 128bpm 4A track, I should be able to look at the table and see that I can mix this with several other key/tempo combinations, so I can go straight to my crate and find one of them!
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NosaCasa
Hi, I just started using the software, I think it's great, completely changing the way I build my sets, much less work trying out beforehand. Here is my question, it's for the experianced ones out there. If I add or substract 2.5% which is not very far from 3%, should I be adding or substracting the 7? I am not interested in using master tempo. So I am looking for the best solution for those above 2.1-2.2% situations but still 2.5 or under? I think if I surpass 2.5% I will always change the note to be safe, is this a good idea or bad?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If I add or substract 2.5% which is not very far from 3%, should I be adding or substracting the 7? I am not interested in using master tempo. So I am looking for the best solution for those above 2.1-2.2% situations but still 2.5 or under? I think if I surpass 2.5% I will always change the note to be safe, is this a good idea or bad? Probably neither good or bad, just an idea. Micro-tonal increments are so small that they are hard to perceive for most people. You can try it, but 3% is the rule. Cheers, Chad P
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Prete
Hello I have a question, I like to mix back and forward through different types of genres to create more nrg or to lower the nrg, for example by mixing from minimal to techno to progressive to trance etc. At this point I do this by ear, but I’m wondering what (theoretically) is the best way to harmonically mix these genres, taking inconsideration the different bpm’s and key’s the songs are in, and the fact that to much speed difference with master tempo is not going to work on long basselines. Could you guys shine a little light on that please? Many thanks!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
At this point I do this by ear, but I’m wondering what (theoretically) is the best way to harmonically mix these genres, taking inconsideration the different bpm’s and key’s the songs are in, and the fact that to much speed difference with master tempo is not going to work on long basselines. Could you guys shine a little light on that please? With all due respect, there's 159 posts before yours shining light on this question :) Use the rules in this thread, and if you want to increase the tempo do it very gradually, or shift it up a semitone or two quickly during a breakdown. This will sound like an energy boost mix without actually mixing. Cheers, Chad P
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kezmen
Hi there, been reading through this topic. Is the key shift calculator in place yet? Thanks, Kez.
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Dirk Bigler
What about if I warp my tracks in repitch mode in Ableton? I assume that if I keep the BPM the same then I can use MIK? (if I change the BPM by one or two, would I have to run them though MIK again?) Thanks!
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DJ/MJ
is there a master tempo function in tractor pro?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Yes, there is. I believe it is called Key lock in Traktor, and you can turn it on by clicking on the little note button in the lower right hand corner of a deck. Cheers, Chad P
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DJ/MJ
great, thanks. The camelot wheel is great and harmonic mixing sound awesome! i dont always use it however as some tracks blend nicely with these rules. are there keys that mix well. ie 1a with 12a/b or 2a/b keys that sound ok ?? and keys that are bg no no's ie clah badly?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
If you scroll down to about the last 10% of the posts here you can see a chart I made with other harmonic mixes that you can try. Cheers, Chad P
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eta car
chad, i have been pulling my hair out with (what should be) a simple question, so I thought I'd bother you. I am using Ableton. Main mix is in 7A. Now I have a track coming in 7A, on top of it I want to bring in another track in 3A. (bit of a mash up) how many semitones/cents do I need to shift the 3A track to bring it to 7A. I've been reading threads all morning, but this simple calculation seems to elude me still. thanks for your help!
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Great question, the answer is 4 semitones. I made a detailed post on transposition that I think you would find helpful here. Cheers, Chad P
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Forschi
Didnt i see someone had made a software for pitch/key transpose calculation?
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Mani78
Hello I'm mixing with digital vinyl. For example, if a track at 126 bpm (2A), and I push the track to 128 bpm then those are about 1.6% more bpm. so now the situation is changing and he does not even sound more 2A. but 3A or 4A. I have understood or really does not matter. I've noticed it with digital vinyl is not always harmonious. Can you give me more info. I hope they did not understand what I mean, my english is not so good. sorry
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Chad (MIK Mod)
For example, if a track at 126 bpm (2A), and I push the track to 128 bpm then those are about 1.6% more bpm. so now the situation is changing and he does not even sound more 2A. but 3A or 4A. Your track is still closer to 2A, not 9A. Read the first post again, you need to add 7 to the Camelot number when you go past 3% BPM change.
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dj sequence
Hey Chad i wanted to know if harmonic mixing still works if i do it for example from 12B to 1A or 12A to 1B please let me know if harmonic mixing would apply as i described above and hope to hear from your answer soon.
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Dj Chocolate
Dear all, maybe i am just been stupid. I am trying to understand something, i understand the +3% etc..... but the more i read and the more it seem to me that the actual important part is not so much the key but the bpm. but what about a two song with same key lets say 124bpm 7A and a song at 128bpm 7A. now we still on the same key but different tempo right. and if i change any of this song bpm i will change the key unless i use key lock. i have song 114 bpm 10A and 122 bpm 10A so i increase the 114 bpm to 120 bpm and lower the 122 bpm to 120 bpm with key lock on both song. Or if i don't use key lock i end up with an horrible mix, so without key lock and just by using mixed in key, in theory i need lots of song at the same bpm with the same key? Or i need to have a table chart of all bpm with key and they result key for different change in bpm? right or wrong?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Right. You either use keylock, or you get good at figuring out BPM changes and how they affect the key of your tracks. Like anything, it takes practice. Your chart idea is good. What I would recommend is sorting first by BPM, and then key. Group your tracks by BPM, and then figure how much the key is going to change for keys in that group to get them to a certain other BPM. Or you could just use keylock. Cheers, Chad P
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Dj Chocolate
Now here is a crazy idea, how about a software for key calculator, It will show the original track keys and also for example if i play a track on 7A at 128bpm could show me all the track that could be compatible at 128bpm 7A with the pitch adjusted +/- , despite they original bpm or key been different. Dj Chocolate
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Right Hand Man
After reading this thread I am considering creating a little app that can do the calculations necessary to help mix harmonically with the inevitable altering of tempo that comes from normal djing. I am thinking that there are two main use cases: 1. I want to know what tracks are compatible at a given tempo. 2. I want to know what adjustments I need to make to one track to make it compatible with another, and whether that will be too much sound processing to sound good. What interface do you think would be best for this? Obviously a plugin for Serato, Torq, Ableton, etc would be awesome but that's not likely to be possible. An app that could analyze your itunes library for the key and bpm information and then suggest tracks would be nice, but you would want to be running that while you're mixing and I don't know if people are going to like to be switching back and forth between apps while djing. Maybe something like a desktop widget that could hover over your djing app? Or what about an iPhone app that just did the calculation? You could put in the first track's key, original bpm, current bpm, and the second track's key, original bpm and it could tell you what adjustment to make... Or maybe just a google docs spreadsheet that you could use to figure out stuff ahead of time or use for studio mixes. Would you use something like this?
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Chad (MIK Mod)
We thought about making something like this ourselves, but most DJ software these days already have some sort of pitch lock.
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Sjekke
Hey Yakov, Thanks for you effort to help everybody here with there questions! I bought mixed in key not so long ago and it´s a great tool. About the bpm changing your key... This is my question : If you are doing a set most of the time the BPM is going up during your set.(I wanna end up at 140bpm at end of set) Let´s say that you start your set at 128bpm 4A. Next song I wanna play is a 130 bpm. I can pich up my 128bpm song to 130bpm while it is playing, less than 3% so I can use a 130 bpm A4,A5,A3,B4 Correct? I´ve see in this forum a lot of examples of big bpm jumps but imagine a song that is playing is 130 bpm 4A, you never try to pitch up this song while playing to 136 bpm because you wanna play next a 136 bpm song(that has to be A11 because of the 6% increase). Slowing down a 136 is also not really an option. The build up you do step by step....so there are not many cases that you use the 6 % rule exept if you wanna play a slower song after a faster song at the fast bpm.... Hope this is a little clear to you How does a playlist look like in your sets bpm wise? and how do you increase your bpm of the song that is playing? thx
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Sjekke
Hey Chad, Thanks for you effort to help everybody here with there questions! I bought mixed in key not so long ago and it´s a great tool. About the bpm changing your key... This is my question : If you are doing a set most of the time the BPM is going up during your set.(I wanna end up at 140bpm at end of set) Let´s say that you start your set at 128bpm 4A. Next song I wanna play is a 130 bpm. I can pich up my 128bpm song to 130bpm while it is playing, less than 3% so I can use a 130 bpm A4,A5,A3,B4 Correct? I´ve see in this forum a lot of examples of big bpm jumps but imagine a song that is playing is 130 bpm 4A, you never try to pitch up this song while playing to 136 bpm because you wanna play next a 136 bpm song(that has to be A11 because of the 6% increase). Slowing down a 136 is also not really an option. The build up you do step by step....so there are not many cases that you use the 6 % rule exept if you wanna play a slower song after a faster song at the fast bpm.... Hope this is a little clear to you How does a playlist look like in your sets bpm wise? and how do you increase your bpm of the song that is playing? thx
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jaydeejoy
@MixedInKey hello i m using dj equipment (pioneer 1000 mk3) with master tempo am i still need mixed in key? just for harmonic mixes( 8A>8A> 7a>7a>6a) and energy boost mixes (5a>7a) also using cubase since 2004.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
i m using dj equipment (pioneer 1000 mk3) with master tempo am i still need mixed in key? Yes, of course. You just don't need to worry about the information in this thread, it only applies if you turn master tempo off. Cheers, Chad P
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soundmann
Can you illustrate for me a keyboard Picture with Chamelot Keynotes.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Yes, there is one posted here: How To Transpose
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J.A.M.
i just purchased mixed in key version 5.0 last night n tried to activate it this morning it doesnt work instead i got this strange message :check your VIP cod,it doesnt exist in our database while, i got the details of my purchasing transaction ,is there anyone to help me out Thanks
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pfm1
Guys, firstly stupendously great product and service - congrats Yakov & Chad. More increasingly I am buying tracks that vary in bPM between 111 - 130 and I play my sets at 125. For the really slow tracks there's clearly a big shift in tempo and I love to mix harmonically on my CDJ2000s. Master Tempo is out of the question so my query is very simple if I have a track that is produced at 111BPM on a key of 2A and I have to shift tempo to 125bpm to bring into the mix this would be a greater shift than 6% so it wouldn't jump to 9A. Would the new measure be 4A as it would be closer to 2 semitones in increase ? I would love to be able to calculate the key so I can play a more diverse collection of music. any help appreciated Thanks in advance
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Chad (MIK Mod)
Would the new measure be 4A as it would be closer to 2 semitones in increase ? Yep, if you move beyond 6% and are closer to 12% it would be a 2 semitone increase.
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pfm1
Thanks Chad, Is there anything out there that I could use to repitch some of my slower tracks ? Meaning I change the tempo up to 125 without affecting key? Could I do this with Ableton, warping at normal pitch then increasing ?? Anyone got an instruction as to how to do that ? Thanks in anticipation
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jds71287
I must be slow haha someone please help me here. Example i have a song 4a 128 and another 4a 129, and im playing them at 128bpm on the cdj's. How would you go about getting them to lock on????
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jds71287
I just keep re-reading this over and over and It does make sense but it doesnt at the same time. Id like to know what i "physically" need to do on the cdj. By the way i own the CDJ900. cdj1 (4a-128) cdj2 (4a-129) and im playing them at 128 bpms???? do i take cdj2 and click master tempo then bring the pitch to 128 so it matches the same bpm as cdj1??? and if so which setting do i put on the tempo +6? cause i also read if the songs are so similar such as in this case there i should use the rule of 3% and if this is true what exactly does that mean i do? Do i now bring it an extra -3% even after i did all those steps??? Someone please help this is my last obstacle as far as DJing. Thanks!!!
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Roge
On the Reloop RMP-3 the "Key" button is the same as Master Tempo.
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JerryFresh
May you please post only the first post on http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/? Thank you.
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marcosvls
Good morning, I read and reread this post several times but still with some doubts that are in the case of making an increase of 8%, 10%, 12% applied the rule of 6%? thank you.
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Chad (MIK Mod)
The same rules apply when moving past 6%. If you go past 9% you are now closer to two semitones beyond the original key, and if you go to 12% you are right at two semitones beyond the original key. Cheers, Chad P
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marcosvls
Two semitones is equal to 14 keys up on the wheel camelot?
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Prisoneer
Hello , I have a question.. If the first track I want to mix is 128 / 8A and the second track is 121 BPM .. the key of the second track must be 1A or 2A in order to become 8A-9A so the mix will sound good ? right ?
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DJMSherman

hello, I just started using MIK today, and so far seems pretty simple and logical. I do dj sets with CDJ's (pioneers 800's) Question: I was wondering if when using cdj's do you write the keycode on the cd next to the track? I would think this would be the easiet way, and then organize all tracks by keycode give or take +1 or -1 on the camelot wheel.

2nd question: When pitching up do you just follow the wheel clockwise? and when pitching down do just follow the wheel counter clockwise? or is the other way around??

thanks

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Chad (MIK Mod)

I was wondering if when using cdj's do you write the keycode on the cd next to the track?

We have an old blog post about labeling CDs here.


2nd question: When pitching up do you just follow the wheel clockwise? and when pitching down do just follow the wheel counter clockwise? or is the other way around??

For every 6% you increase or decrease the pitch, you need to move "up" 7 spaces on the Camelot Wheel, or "down" 7 spaces on the Camelot Wheel, respectively.

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DJMSherman

lOOKING AT THE hARMONIC WHEEL, iS IT SAFE TO SAY THAT IF im PLAYING A TRACK THAT IS 4A, i SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM PLAYING TRACKS THAT ARE 4A, 5A, OR 6A, OR 4B, 5B, OR 6B? iM ASSUMING THAT WHEN MIXING SETS YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PLAY TRACKS THAT ARE HIGHER IN SEQUENCE ON THE hARMONIC WHEEL?

aLSO, iF iM PLAYING A TRACK THAT IS 4A, i COULD PLAY 3A, 2A, , AND 4B, 3B, 2B, AS LONG IS i DONT HAVE CHANGE THE PITCH OVER 3%

iM GUESSING THAT THE COLORS ON THE hARMONIC WHEEL ARE A SAFE WAY TO MIX WITHIN THE KEY COLOR TO ALWAYS BE OK????

iT'S GETS A LITTLE CONFUSING WHEN YOU HAVE TO PITCH UP OR DOWN MORE THAT 3 %, i DONT LIKE THE WAY MY KEYLOCK SOUNDS . fyi.

THANKS,

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DJMSherman

Next question. Someone told me that you can play tunes that are diretly across from one another on the Harmonic wheel. For example I could play a 5a track and directly across from that is 11a? is this true?

thanks

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Chad (MIK Mod)

You can mix from 5A to 11A, it's very similar to a modulation mix where every note in the scale is mixed up one semitone. However, the root notes are likely to clash, it wouldn't sound good to leave this type of mix going for very long. It is more effective as a quick mix.

To answer your prior post, under most circumstances you can mix into any key that is adjacent to the key you are currently in.

Cheers,
Chad P

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karlosm

On Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:59 AM Yakov (Mixed In Key) wrote:

Hi,

I believe that if you use "Beats" or "Complex" mode, Ableton Live takes care of this for you. You can configure this setting individually for every clip you play, so it's easy to set up.

If you use "Repitch", the 3% and 6% rule applies.

SO THE BEST WARP MODE TO USE IN ABLETON IS COMPLEX OR BEATS?FOR HARMONIC MIXING?

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Chad (MIK Mod)

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 1:33 PM karlosm wrote:

On Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:59 AM Yakov (Mixed In Key) wrote:

Hi,

I believe that if you use "Beats" or "Complex" mode, Ableton Live takes care of this for you. You can configure this setting individually for every clip you play, so it's easy to set up.

If you use "Repitch", the 3% and 6% rule applies.

SO THE BEST WARP MODE TO USE IN ABLETON IS COMPLEX OR BEATS?FOR HARMONIC MIXING?

You shouldn't use beats mode for anything other than audio that is only comprised of percussion. Complex and Complex Pro are the best for working with full songs, use Pro if your CPU can handle it.

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skyso

I would like an set tribecore at 200 bpm
and I have a song:

key - BPM

1) 3A - 202
2) 4A - 196
3) 5A - 196
4) 6A - 200

it's possible ? with don't key changing?

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Chad (MIK Mod)

The math for calculating this is pretty simple. Take the BPM of each song and multiply that by 1.03. If the BPM change you need to make is less than that number you don't need to worry about a key change.

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skyso

On Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:48 PM Chad P (Mixed In Key) wrote:

The math for calculating this is pretty simple. Take the BPM of each song and multiply that by 1.03. If the BPM change you need to make is less than that number you don't need to worry about a key change.

yes but how do we get the 1,03
and why ^^
with my French I struggle to understand and translate :)
can you give me all formula
how to calculate
thank's you very much

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Chad (MIK Mod)

1.03 = original BPM plus 3%

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sam27

I've seen lots of questions on this subject but not much in the way of feedback. How has this been working for other people?

I have tried it a couple of times. Mainly keeping the BPM changes to less than 3% so working on the assumption that the key has not changed. It worked well for some mixes but not so well for others. Some actually sounded better when I used the 6% rule even though my BPM change was below 3%. I'm going to stick with it for now since I found the sound quality is noticeably better using the "repitch" mode. I only have Ableton Intro so the "Complex" and "Pro" warp options are not available to me.

Thanks for posting this info, very useful!

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alu

I had a quick question on the 3% rule. Which is correct, to be within the "window" of the 3% rule on the pitch slider:

0% <-> +3.0%

or

-3.0% <-> +3.0% == Isn't this a difference of 6%?

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Chad (MIK Mod)

-3% <- 0 ->3% is within the 3% change range. It's only a 6% change if you are pitching both tracks, one up 3% and one down 3%.

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newtproofzoot

My mixing software DOES include a feature that keeps tracks in their original Key, but I have noticed it drops the Quality of the track - I have my Music in WAV/AIFF and it seems to me that its like turning the track into a 256k MP3, mainly muddying up some of the bass

This could be just the way Traktor pro handles it, and there might not be many others that noticed this, but I was thinking of buying the DDJ SX and using Serato once I got a bit more cash and was wondering if anyone using Traktor Pro had noticed this, and if Serato's sound the same?

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Chad (MIK Mod)

Serato is probably going to be worse. Have you tried different settings for the key lock in Traktor? I think it has a higher quality setting that might give you better results.

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newtproofzoot

I use the higher quality setting... I guess I will just have to try out serato and see if it makes a difference - I'm probably being overly anal about it all..

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Pieter

Hi,

How is the target TEMPO/KEY calculator coming along. Its been promised since 2007 and I just purchased the latest version 5.5 and I see no calculator yet.

Thanks

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Chad (MIK Mod)

Hi Pieter,

In 2008 I mentioned that we might add a key calculator in a future version, but that was not "promised since 2007". This is not a project that we are working on right now, most DJ software has key lock built in. Yes, I know that degrades audio quality, but so does massive pitch adjustments without key-lock on. Plans change, and thanks to posts like yours, instead of discussing possible new features with the community I now avoid talking about anything that hasn't been released yet at all costs.

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Pieter

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:08 AM Chad P (Mixed In Key) wrote:

Hi Pieter,

In 2008 I mentioned that we might add a key calculator in a future version, but that was not "promised since 2007". This is not a project that we are working on right now, most DJ software has key lock built in. Yes, I know that degrades audio quality, but so does massive pitch adjustments without key-lock on. Plans change, and thanks to posts like yours, instead of discussing possible new features with the community I now avoid talking about anything that hasn't been released yet at all costs.

OK, apologies for my assumption that it would be implemented. It just sounded like it was easy for you guys to do this, and I thought I may have missed it somehow. Would have been a useful feature though !.

Thanks anyway.

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Chad (MIK Mod)

Well Pieter, I have been wanting to teach myself a little programming, this may be just the project ;)

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Pieter

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:49 PM Chad P (Mixed In Key) wrote:

Well Pieter, I have been wanting to teach myself a little programming, this may be just the project ;)

LOL - Well get on with it then ! ;-)

I'm sure it will make quite a few DJ's very happy.

Cheers

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denny85

How about mixing with turntables and vinyl records how do I recognize what key will the song change to? during pitch either slowing/speeding? or should I get pair turntables with key lock feature? as Tech's do not have this feature?

cheers

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K-Sound

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:49 PM Chad P (Mixed In Key) wrote:

Well Pieter, I have been wanting to teach myself a little programming, this may be just the project ;)

Hi chad, I am new here in the community, I have a question about how to guide me through the camelot notation.
If necessary to empty a dance floor, which would be the appropriate technique to achieve this effect?
If I will do the Warm-up, it is always advisable to increase semitones each mixture?
With Electro House, Progressive House and Pop / Rock can do the Warm-Up?
With the already crowded dance floor. The correct way is to use the technique of blending harmoniously? For example 10A, 10A, 11A, 12A, 1A, 1B, 2B, 3B, 3A, 4A, 5A, and so forth?
I know some of my questions may go beyond the harmonic mix, but if you know of some techniques that can help, I thank you.

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Chad (MIK Mod)

Check out the How To page on the Mixed In Key website, and once you understand the basics check out the more advanced topics linked at the right of the page. You should also check out our book, linked at the top of the MIK homepage.

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nova bc

If track 1 is 2A with a pitch +1,5% and track B is 2A with pitch + 4,6%
I have a difference between 1,5 and 4,6 = 3,1% so I use the 6% rule. Is it right?

And if track 1 is 2A with a pitch +1,5% and track B is 2A with pitch + 3,1%
I have a difference between 1,5% and 3,1 = 1,6% so I keep the original key. is it right ?

Thanks for your answer

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Chad (MIK Mod)

You are correct on both counts.

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nova bc

thank you chad :-)

In my example the original key 2A is find with 0 % pitch but for my set, track 1 is 2A with a pitch +1,5% and track B is 2A with pitch + 4,6%. Did you understand like that for your answer ?

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Chad (MIK Mod)

Yes I did. You really should just start experimenting though, if you can't hear the difference you probably shouldn't be DJing ;)

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andrewid.aw

Dear Chad P / Yakov,

First of all, I'm sure both of you must be EXHAUSTED chasing after one reply after another!

I do apologise for yet making another post on this subject; but rather it's more of a curiosity rather than a technical one.

I find this to be more of a moral dilemma than a 'technical' issue so to speak; mainly surrounding on the 'ethics' of when and when not to use master tempo…or simply do not use them at all when constructing, trial & erring for any set/s / composition.

For all this time (nearly two years now for me as hobbyst DJ, and hobbyst compilation designer/ compilation collector for six years prior) I personally think whilst having a master tempo rule is good, but what if the scenario below occurs:

One Night - an absolutely blown out great soulful electro house session. The next day, one person came up and ask "I know this track, I heard it off from youtube. But it sounded slightly off / different. What have you done?

Say you play in front of a live club for a soulful electro house session (not simplistically dirty dutch, but electro house with a 'soulful', melancholically-heavy arrangement). There's a quite a few tracks that you feel dead set confident that they work completely in harmony, WITHOUT the need for using master tempo at all (in fact, only within 3 to 5% of the overall track selections), and that the overall tempo canvas range you're working is somewhere between 124-128bpm max.

...Now what if and let's just assume that everyone had an absolutely great time, you've mentioned/given them a few of the track/songs names from your set. So off they go in the next day going to Youtube and realise that when playing the song/s you've used in the set they're of an entirely different key!! (because assumingly, that the Youtube channel / poster assumingly always posted the song at 100% of their original tempo. 100% original tempo = 100% original key / 100% respect for the artist).

…And thus as a result - wouldn't that be a turn off from the audience to find that they're hearing a completely different key from this difference from other official sources? Even though by all means that you were intended to be the DJ, and managed to get those tracks to sound and TURNED OUT GREAT when you played it out in your set that night?

-

Who or what is more important - 1: Maintaining the original artist's track key & tempo (ETHICS), or 2: Adjusting for the good for the set / journey itself (INDIVIDUALISM, AESTHETICS)?*

For all my years listening to actual commercial mix compilations; not just various sub genres of House, but over the years I'm talking about Nu-Disco, Lounge, Nu-Jazz, Downtempo (which sadly accounts for only 15-20% of listening demographics) - what I'd stumbled have been somewhat of a surprise too. I'm not giving out any names; but I've listened to those compilations where the tracks (that sounded really, and truly I mean it - really good) in someone else's compilation, but once I got and listened to their actual individual track/s in question from other 'official' channels - such as from a digital shop or Youtube and guess what....the key in the track/song's original tempo sounded SO DIFFERENT!

Not sure who should I give my respect/s more to in this dilemma? The original artist themselves or for the sake of delivering a thoroughly planned, CONSISTENT journey of whatever songs, within the same genre/s of course; that are compatible by gut reaction, trial & erroring, and manual tempo pitch/compatible matching WITHOUT THE MASTER TEMPO activated?

I'm just wondering what your views and opinions are to the above dilemma :(. Sure during a live set people get drunk and most can't even remember a thing, but what if by odd chances you have people coming up to you and said "hey, I swear I heard one of your song somewhere else and it sounded a little bit off, did you change it?"

The million dollar question is how do you tackle the above scenario?

I'd be most interested to hear from other accomplished DJ's to lend their opinions on this. Whilst I'm strictly a hobbyist DJ at the moment thus far (no commercial experience), I sincerely do believe that producing a good mix SURELY requires more than just mix and matching songs with the same Key and BPM. I always look for the feel, mood, intent, beat structures (linears vs. progressives), hell even the song's language and context IN ADDITION to identifying the KEY and BPM of what each song is as it is at original 100% tempo. Then afterwards, it's just endless practising, and replacing only when resourcefully possible until I am "deadset" confident that this is it.

This issue only comes before me since the last couple of months and I still couldn't decide whether to stick the above law or just simply personally use the master tempo "sparingly"……But for sure I haven't heard any set, live or otherwise consisting of entirely different individual tracks themselves to be played with Master Tempo activated and voila! music goes out flawlessly for the next 30 mins or even an entire night… at least I don't believe in miracles.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Andrew W.


AW™
initialsession.com/
andrew-wiguna.squarespace.com

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Chad (MIK Mod)

On Monday, August 26, 2013 7:25 AM andrewid.aw wrote:

Dear Chad P / Yakov,
First of all, I'm sure both of you must be EXHAUSTED chasing after one reply after another!

It is a never ending commitment :) Thanks for an interesting post, I think that this could easily deserve it's own thread, feel free to start one with a copy of my reply if you wish, you'll probably get more replies that way.

…And thus as a result - wouldn't that be a turn off from the audience to find that they're hearing a completely different key from this difference from other official sources? Even though by all means that you were intended to be the DJ, and managed to get those tracks to sound and TURNED OUT GREAT when you played it out in your set that night?

I think that the number of people who are going to notice something like this is going to be an extremely small percentage of the listening audience. Just like with software development and customer service as a DJ you can't always please everybody. It's tough to accept but you'll be a lot better off with yourself if you can accept it and focus on making as many people happy as you can. It's the DJs job to get those tracks to mix well, and if that involves changing the key or tempo or mashing it up or whatever you're just doing your job. I think that most people EXPECT the DJ to make the songs sound different.

Who or what is more important - 1: Maintaining the original artist's track key & tempo (ETHICS), or 2: Adjusting for the good for the set / journey itself (INDIVIDUALISM, AESTHETICS)?*

Without a doubt number 2.

Not sure who should I give my respect/s more to in this dilemma? The original artist themselves or for the sake of delivering a thoroughly planned, CONSISTENT journey of whatever songs, within the same genre/s of course; that are compatible by gut reaction, trial & erroring, and manual tempo pitch/compatible matching WITHOUT THE MASTER TEMPO activated?

They both deserve equal respect. A song writer and a DJ have different goals, they don't need to contradict each other.

I'm just wondering what your views and opinions are to the above dilemma :(. Sure during a live set people get drunk and most can't even remember a thing, but what if by odd chances you have people coming up to you and said "hey, I swear I heard one of your song somewhere else and it sounded a little bit off, did you change it?"

The million dollar question is how do you tackle the above scenario?

Of course I changed it, I'm a club DJ and that's what we do!

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andrewid.aw

Hi Chad P,

Wow, thanks once again for the immediate reply:)!

I guess I've been somewhat slightly paranoid, but thank you once again though for clarifying on this. It's funny that Dj'ing, as well as the recent arrival and inventions of new methods and technologies have been established for decades, perhaps I just have not stumbled across an internet article that talks about the possible 'moral' issues; at very least - surrounding the topic of changing Keys and Tempo as part of set construction & promotion process.

And I guess now that my gut reaction was right, it's all about balance and intuition :). Knowing how and when to keylock only when it's necessary.

Cheers and kind regards from Australia,

Andrew W.

AW™
initialsession.com/
andrew-wiguna.squarespace.com

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AJAN HEX

Thanks for tricks... Now i know how to mix key and tempo in harmonic mixing

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